I have been a Fiat enthusiast since 1977 , have owned almost all of the models.
Personally I think Fiat made a mistake in producing the modern 500 range, all comments are negative about the car, older ones look tatty and age quickly.
The enthusiast are waning and have no interest in them.

barryfiatman said:

Personally I think Fiat made a mistake in producing the modern 500 range, all comments are negative about the car, older ones look tatty and age quickly.

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Well, Fiat might say it's made them a lot of money, and has sold particularly well in the UK. Without it, it's entirely possible Fiat would by now have pulled out of the UK market altogether. And many folks would say it's still the prettiest car in its class.

I see posts here every day from 500 owners who are still delighted with their cars, saying it's the only car they've had in a long while that puts a smile on their face every time they drive it, so I can't accept your statement that all comments are negative about the car.

That said, Fiat have milked the 500 for all it's worth, and it's an old design now, getting older by the day. They've used it as a cash cow, rather than ploughing the profits back into designing its successor.

I'd agree with your comment about ageing quickly; IMO an older 500 could prove expensive for anyone without DIY skills. It's built in a modern factory and assembly quality is reasonably good, but it's built using some of the cheapest parts on the planet, and this shows in the number of posts we see regarding prematurely worn parts. A well used dualogic in particular is basically a liability waiting to happen.

The secondhand market doesn't reflect this, at least not yet; residuals are still amongst the highest in its class. But I think it's only a matter of time before reality kicks in. It used to be good value for those looking to pcp a new car every 2-3yrs as the sky high residuals kept monthly payments low and you'd most likely be rid of it before the real problems start, but pcp quotes have been creeping upwards recently, most likely because of concerns about end of agreement residuals.

Paying main dealer money for a 3-6yr old 500 could easily prove to be an expensive mistake. Folks in that market wanting a Fiat would do better to look at the Panda, where prices are more realistic. And paying £4k+ for a 10yr old 500 is way beyond stupid, but a quick look in the classifieds will see many priced at that mark.

barryfiatman said:

I have been a Fiat enthusiast since 1977 , have owned almost all of the models.
Personally I think Fiat made a mistake in producing the modern 500 range, all comments are negative about the car, older ones look tatty and age quickly.
The enthusiast are waning and have no interest in them.

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Shirley you can't be serious?! Any 10+ year old car is likely to look tatty, and enthusiasts are still pretty interested in the 595/695s.

Without the 500, Fiat would have died years ago.

barryfiatman said:

I have been a Fiat enthusiast since 1977 , have owned almost all of the models.
Personally I think Fiat made a mistake in producing the modern 500 range, all comments are negative about the car, older ones look tatty and age quickly.
The enthusiast are waning and have no interest in them.

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With all due respect you couldn’t be more wrong.

I work for a car company these days and we would bite your hand off if we could have the success that the 500 has. We’d kill to be able to launch a car based on a 4 year old platform and then sell it for 7 or 8 years unfacelifted and still have the sales they had with it.

The comments are negative because few people go onto the forum of what is now an 11 year old car to wax lyrical about it, they come on here because they have issues with their cars which are now getting on in terms of age and mileage. Things go wrong with older cars.

Don't forget the fact that ford essentially paid for the development costs with the ka

lsgraham_uk said:

Don't forget the fact that ford essentially paid for the development costs with the ka

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I very very much doubt that. Ford would have only gone in on a joint venture if it meant cost savings, even developing a car based on another one isn’t cheap, but you’re not going to be able to bill the other company for the development of their car as well as yours.

Ford paid around 150mn to fiat to be able to use the floorpan. As it was developed from the panda it was essentially paid for.

lsgraham_uk said:

Ford paid around 150mn to fiat to be able to use the floorpan. As it was developed from the panda it was essentially paid for.

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You’d be astounded at how much it costs to develop a car that’s a based on another car and not a new platform. I work for a car manufacturer and let’s just say I wouldn’t be surprised if the bill was higher and I wouldn’t be surprised if Fiat didn’t make anything from the development of the Ka.

Just to give you an idea on costs, the LCD instrument cluster from the current 500 would have been a multi million euro project to develop and probably would have required a new body computer which would also have been millions to develop.

Prototype and development cars are horrifically expensive as well.

The 2005 agreement according to Steve Cropley of autocar between fiat and ford enabled the development costs of the 500 to be covered in a 50/50 split. As the majority of the work was already done for the panda it made the 500 costs essentially free.

lsgraham_uk said:

The 2005 agreement according to Steve Croxley of autocar between fiat and ford enabled the development costs of the 500 to be covered in a 50/50 split. As the majority of the work was already done for the pandit made the 500 costs essentially free.

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You don’t actually believe anything you read in the motoring press do you?

There is so much that is not the same between the Panda and 500. It doesn’t share a single exterior panel with the Panda. The tooling for body panels is bloody expensive. The 500 and the Panda aren’t nearly as closely related as you make out.

Depends on the source, been reading autocar long enough to know the validity. Now if it was in the sun I would be sceptical.

lsgraham_uk said:

Depends on the source, been reading autocar long enough to know the validity. Now if it was in the sun I would be sceptical.

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These are the same publications that week after week come out with ‘exclusives’ that never amount to anything.

This is probably about the closest thing to a realistic estimate you’re going to see.

https://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/27...utomakers-to-develop-new-models/?guccounter=1

Like I previously said, I work for a car manufacturer in their engineering department and I work on the development of new models, so I know a little on the subject.

You're assuming I know nothing... ( former design engineer / project manager)

Taking into account inflation of 25% since 2005 we can roughly say that the fiat was around 500mn to design based on Rd budget.. Ford took it upon themselves to pay for 50% of the costs. The average cost for development/tooling of the powertrain is 20%. fiat had already done that hard work so that 100mn straight away is removed from fiat's costs. Down to 150mn. I'll poke around and find you exact costs if you want.

lsgraham_uk said:

You're assuming I know nothing... ( former design engineer / project manager)

Taking into account inflation of 25% since 2005 we can roughly say that the fiat was around 500mn to design based on Rd budget.. Ford took it upon themselves to pay for 50% of the costs. The average cost for development/tooling of the powertrain is 20%. fiat had already done that hard work so that 100mn straight away is removed from fiat's costs. Down to 150mn. I'll poke around and find you exact costs if you want.

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You claim to have worked in the automotive industry yet you trust an automotive magazine? Curious. Ford took it upon themselves to pay 50% of the costs? How do you know this? Autocar? Car manufacturers don’t make the details of these arrangements public!

Might be news to you, but the 1.2 engine wasn’t a carryover engine from the Panda. Even with an engine that is supposedly the same, like the 75ps 1.3 multijet will most likely have a mapping that is bespoke to the 500 or the Panda.

If you want to think that Ford paid for the development of the 500 then that’s up to you. Wish the company I work for could take advantage of arrangements like that!

Never claimed to work in automobile industry, I was in something much more dangerous
Let's face it the lineage of the fire engine goes back a long way, I had it during its teen years in a Mk2 Punto Sporting yes it has,changed considerably but those incremental changes are still cheaper than blank sheet design.

lsgraham_uk said:

Never claimed to work in automobile industry, I was in something much more dangerous
Let's face it the lineage of the fire engine goes back a long way, I had it during its teen years in a Mk2 Punto Sporting yes it has,changed considerably but those incremental changes are still cheaper than blank sheet design.

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What could be more dangerous than building a car that’s going to end up in the hands of millions of drivers of varying levels of competence

http://www.fiatpress.co.uk/press/article/fiat-and-ford-sign-small-cars-agreement

Marchionne added: "As far as Fiat is concerned, the partnership with Ford is relevant fourfold: the decision to manufacture the new cars at Tychy is a clear vote of confidence and trust in our Polish plant; the joint development of the new cars bears witness to the flexibility of the highly successful Fiat Panda platform; and the alliance represents a win-win industrial opportunity for both parties. Finally, I am pleased to say that the much awaited future Fiat 500 will further enhance our brand identity as it represents both an icon in the history of our Company, and of the motor industry."

I worked in weapon design and Eod, so a little more dangerous just.

I’m not sure what the Fiat press article is meant to prove? I’m well aware that it was a joint venture and that it represents a cost saving to both manufacturers, but Ford won’t have paid for the development of the 500.

barryfiatman said:

I have been a Fiat enthusiast since 1977 , have owned almost all of the models.

Personally I think Fiat made a mistake in producing the modern 500 range, all comments are negative about the car, older ones look tatty and age quickly.

The enthusiast are waning and have no interest in them.

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Are you for real?

306maxi said:

Just to give you an idea on costs, the LCD instrument cluster from the current 500 would have been a multi million euro project to develop and probably would have required a new body computer which would also have been millions to develop.

Prototype and development cars are horrifically expensive as well.

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good point....

Just curious as to why Fiat would introduce a 5" and also a 7" Radio unit in the new cars, why not just stick with 7" and have one with Nav and without ? isn't it more costly to mess about with the development of the 5" and have that as well ?