Hi.

I have a similar problem to storm0105 in thread 296897-please-help-xenon-lights.html

I wanted to get "proper" HID's for the car and have bought OEM UK spec headlight units from eBay (sound familiar!?).

I have two questions for the forum.
1) Does anyone have a wiring diagram for the headlights HID and non-HID?
2) Can anyone identify the function of the parts inside an HID headlight (see below)

(Number 1)
First the major problem.... They are not plug and play (as the photos on the thread show) Does anyone have the pinout for the HID and the Halogen headlights?

Halogen have connectors which have 5 pins connected. the central line of 4 and one additional one. The connector itself has a single row of 4 pins and two pairs above and below, a total of 8 pins

HID's I don't know, but they appear to have two rows of 5 pins, with a pair of connectors above and below them. In total 14 pins.

The HID unit has a number of bits in it. On the base is the controller box, with the high voltage for the light.

(Number 2)
Inside the light there is the passenger count levelling unit (controlled from the dash with the + and - buttons - allows you to control for people in the car) and another controller under the light which I can't work out.

Any help appreciated... or I'll have to strip the light down and refit with "known" parts which is a royal PIA!

It's all been said already in storm0105's thread.

Read Davren's reply.

You can't upgrade to bi-Xenon lighting just by changing the clusters, irrespective of whether those clusters are OEM parts or not.

Unless you also fit all the associated self-levelling suspension parts, sensors, controls and wiring, all you'll succeed in doing is to make your car illegal, dangerous and a hazard to everyone you meet on the road.

Illumination height must be driven by the car's self-levelling system (which your car hasn't got) - you don't control HID levelling manually using buttons on the dashboard.

I don't know of anyone who's done this conversion legally; it's theoretically possible, but the parts alone would cost you a fortune (the suspension arms alone are silly money - as anyone who's needed to replace one has found to their cost). It'd be cheaper to trade the car in for one with Bi-Xenon lighting already fitted.

The best advice is the advice given in that thread - return what you have bought for a refund.

If you go back to stock spec, I've found these to be the best bulbs of all those out there, if it's any help,
http://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/H1-Philips-X-treme-Vision-130-Headlight-Bulbs-Pair.html

The factory fitted Bi-xenons also have a mechanical washer system too which is linked to your windscreen washer.


I specifically ordered these on my new 500 as a £600+ option because retrofit ones are nowhere near as good.

John202020 said:

If you go back to stock spec, I've found these to be the best bulbs of all those out there, if it's any help,
http://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/H1-Philips-X-treme-Vision-130-Headlight-Bulbs-Pair.html

Click to expand...

It's Philips, Osram or General Electrics, stay away from the rest.
And beware of anything offered on Ebay, most are overpriced fake bulbs...

As stated by others above, to be legal HIDs must have:
1. Self-leveling beams
2. A headlamp wash system


Don't know if these are checked as part of an MoT - they should be.

TrevC said:

As stated by others above, to be legal HIDs must have:
1. Self-leveling beams
2. A headlamp wash system


Don't know if these are checked as part of an MoT - they should be.

Click to expand...

Have a look at this document and pay particular attention to section 1.7.

Note reason for rejection 1.7.2:

"A headlamp levelling or cleaning device inoperative or otherwise obviously defective"

Any competent MOT tester will know that a 500 fitted with HID's should have headlamp washers and self levellers. If these items aren't even fitted, it doesn't get much more obviously defective than that.

Amateur home tinkerers seeking to cobble together some sort of hybrid system out of a mixture of OEM parts have more than the law, VOSA and MOT's to worry about. There's 50,000 volts floating around in the innards of these things and they might just find out first hand about Darwin's theories on evolution.

MOT hid/washers, headlamp washers must work with hid lights Where fitted as standard(washers), never had a mot issue with my old Accord that I fitted hid too, though it came with washers standard and manual leveling also had hid fog lights

Is it that the regs only apply on vehicles manufactured after a certain date? If so, it must go back a fair way. The 2002 Laguna I had some years ago had HIDs as standard, complete with self-levelling and washers.

Thanks for the reply.

Strange - lost my reply.
Peter Pick-Up - I agree with this - non-genuine parts are a pain.

Back to my lights. I cant send them back the company went out of business, so I am going to work with them. I understand the requirements of the law (@jrkitching - thanks for the detailed response) - but I have used aftermarket HID's for years, always replacing the headlamp unit to ensure I don't blind people. I have never had an MoT rejection because of them.

Back to one of my original questions.
Does some kind person have a workshop manual with the electrical pinout for the headlights. HID and normal?

Also (more easily)
Does anyone have HID's who could try the +/- buttons on the side of the speedo cowl to see if they have an effect?

Thanks

lukewest said:

Does some kind person have a workshop manual with the electrical pinout for the headlights. HID and normal?

Click to expand...

You can download the eLEARN workshop manual from the forum downloads section here: https://www.fiatforum.com/downloads.php?categoryid=11
.

Davren - Many thanks

There are some misconceptions on here. And people should ensure that they are furnished with the correct information before getting on the moral high horse. You don't need headlamp washers or self levelling for the car to be legal.

Our 1997 Mitsubishi FTO GPvR was fitted from factory with HID headlamps. Only the Version R had these and the car had no self levelling or wash system. It passed an SVA test and MOT on entering the UK after import from Japan and passed all consequent MOT's thereafter without quibble.

Self levelling and washer system only have to work if fitted. Which they are on new cars. Therefore you can happily retro fit OEM HID headlamps and not fall foul to any laws regarding such. It is a very common modification on Clio 172/182 Cup and Trophy models that were not fitted with them, only the "full fat" 172/182's got them standard, and on MK5 Golfs as only the R32 had them standard and they were and expensive optional extra when new.

Government publication from 2010 on the matter which I wil quote from;


"In the Department for Transport's (DfT) view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern"

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....ormation-sheets/aftermarket-hid-headlamps.pdf

The same publication goes on to say:

1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. - who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.

2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam
.

Just looked at the government MoT test regs. They include::
Operation, including High Intensity Discharge (HID) and light emitting diodes (LED)
The headlamps for cleaning, self-levelling and security.

Therefore, any test station that allows HIDs without cleaning and levelling is very lax, or ignorant of the current regulations.

MOT tests also state that you check the condition of wiper blades if fitted and that the windscreen is not chipped in the designated areas above a prescribed size. If you remove your windscreen which you are entitled to do so legally it is not a failure even if car was made with one, and then you don't need wiper blades, therefore you pass the MOT. My friend is an MOT tester for Mercedes Benz but has worked for FORD and various independents over his 15 year career and likes to spot these often overlooked idiosyncrasies held within the MOT regulations.

It is the same with cleaning and levelling it is a manufacturers necessity to meet homologation requirements that came into force from 1998, and as such is fitted from factory, but is only checked that it operates if fitted therefore if you retro fit headlamps it is not. Hence why our perfectly legal Mistsubishi FTO GPvR built in 1997 and therefore predating European regulations has no self levelling or washing system. Some FTO's are registered as built in 1998 and will pass not only strict SVA test but MOT on entering the UK. The MOT test is as designed meant to test that what is fitted. It can't discriminate against cars such as the FTO which didn't have such systems fitted. Therefore you can fit the OEM HID headlamps and not fit washing or leaving systems. It really is that simple.

I should add I believe the rules on fitting aftermarket HID systems to old style halogen headlamps is proper in its statement, and should be adhered to as there is nothing worse than poor light splatter from cheap systems fitted where they do not belong.

J333EVO said:

Therefore you can fit the OEM HID headlamps and not fit washing or leaving systems.

Click to expand...

Irrespective as to whether the car may or may not pass an MOT in the UK (which in the final analysis would be down to the individual tester on the day), fitting OEM HID headlamps without the corresponding washing and levelling systems to any post - 1998 car not so homologated at the time of original manfacture is still illegal, as the link you kindly attached to your previous post states quite clearly (reproduced below).

Please do not make the mistake of confusing the requirements of the law with what you think you might be able to get away with. Anyone bragging on a public forum about making illegal, dangerous and antisocial modifications to a vehicle which is to used on the public highway demonstrates a level of arrogance, selfishness and lack of concern for other road users that I find, quite frankly, disgusting.

Please kindly refrain from making such posts in future.

Clearly it states "in practice" and does not infer that it is black and white clear cut law. The EC regulation is in reference to the manufacture of cars, not the UK rules on MOT's. As cars have been built with these lights and no mention of LED or HID lights is made in the earlier 1989 Road Vehicle Lighting regulations they are in fact all illegal factory fitted or not. But that is unreasonable to exclude those cars.

"NOTE: The information in this document is a summary of DfT’s understanding of what the law requires. However, ultimately the interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts based on individual facts of any particular case. You are therefore advised to consult the relevant legislation and, if necessary, seek independent advice."

Are you a lawyer which specialises in the interpretation of vehicular transportation rules and regulations?

If so I will bow to your expert and through knowledge. Though why would you frequent a forum for car owners if you were?

If not, which is more than likely the case, I request that forewith that an apology is given by you on the besmirching of my character as I did not once brag about any modification that I have done.

Your comments come across as bullying and childish, attributes that are not welcome in any section of society least of all a public forum by an individual who is meant to be a moderator. It really shows how this once wonderful forum has slipped from its once held heady heights.

J333EVO said:

I request that forewith that an apology is given by you on the besmirching of my character as I did not once brag about any modification that I have done.

Click to expand...

My comment was not directed at you specifically but at anyone making such a modification. At no time have I stated or implied that you had made such a modification yourself.

J333EVO said:

Your comments come across as bullying and childish, attributes that are not welcome in any section of society least of all a public forum by an individual who is meant to be a moderator.

Click to expand...

That's how you've chosen to interpret my comments; as moderator of a public forum, I cannot condone anyone modifying a car when the latest government guidance on the subject is that the modification would not be lawful.

My statement that fitting HID's without the associated ancilliary components is dangerous, selfish and antisocial is simply my own opinion, and I stand by it.