jrkitching said:

I'd agree the current UK regulations are hopelessly out of date, but IMO that's not a valid reason to knowingly break the law. I'd also agree it would be enormously helpful if the law were changed so that reputable lighting manufacturers could more easily offer properly certified LED replacements, and car manufacturers could properly integrate them into the design of the vehicle. The latter is needed because the power saving benefits of LED technology will be lost if you need to fit resistors to make them work properly. I'm sure it's only a question of time before all this happens.

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Current uk regulations are out of date which is why new cars in the uk are tested against EU type approval standards, in the eu standards you will find all the new technologies and the provisions for them that allow LEDs and new LED head lights HIDs (which aren't covered in uk law) and even the new laser headlights. Modern lights spin twirl and do all sorts of fancy tricks like selectively blocking the light in the direction of oncoming cars, my new car has auto main beams.

Non of this stuff is covered in uk law and is allowed under EU law which is why this isn't a black and white case and even our own government don't really know where things stand. Essentially if the bulb and the light is e marked (and you can buy e marked LEDs) then the law is happy.... Unless they want a battle through eu courts!

If your bulb and lens are e marked and you inform your insurance co then they will be happy. Insurance companies do not check every component is appropriately marked or check the validity of the marks. In fact the insurance company very rarely sees the car. If you have informed them and they have allowed it then it's not a problem.

The Philips bulbs are tested in a certain range of cars, Philips are not about to test every car made in the last 20 years to ensure compatibility. But as mentioned if the bulb had the mark then it is deemed suitable for any e marked lamp (those tests are for American SAE standards.)

This whole argument and the reason we are having the discussion is because of one arrogant member basically says "I could fix your problem, it's very simple but I'm not going to because ethics prevents me from doing so" which is just plain rude and obnoxious, if you don't want to comment, don't comment. The laws he's quoting don't even cover the situation and you're defending him without any more knowledge than just happening to agree with him. It's the whole reason the the forum member had left and the thread is getting criticised.

The argument for LEDs is that they last longer and provide a better quality of light, usually whiter for better visibility, which can be seen easier and travel further without the need for reflectors. They respond quicker making them better for brake lights and they are less susceptible to the environment and vibration.

g8rpi said:

No, that is not correct. The UK site links to the AMERICAN pdf of approved vehicle fitments.
http://www.philips.co.uk/c-dam/b2c/...ster/pdf/PL1558_LED_Retrofit_Applications.pdf
They only meet SAE requirements.
You break two parts of the lighting regs, the one that requires a filament and the one that requires that it's approved. I'm not wasting my time looking up the exact reference.

Robert G8RPI.

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At the bottom of the U.K. Led website.....

Oh and no matter what uk laws say we have to recognise the EU laws, after all you keep quoting the ECE standards which are the EU laws we follow

AndyRKett said:

Current uk regulations are out of date which is why new cars in the uk are tested against EU type approval standards, in the eu standards you will find all the new technologies and the provisions for them that allow LEDs and new LED head lights HIDs (which aren't covered in uk law) and even the new laser headlights. Modern lights spin twirl and do all sorts of fancy tricks like selectively blocking the light in the direction of oncoming cars, my new car has auto main beams.

Non of this stuff is covered in uk law and is allowed under EU law which is why this isn't a black and white case and even our own government don't really know where things stand. Essentially if the bulb and the light is e marked (and you can buy e marked LEDs) then the law is happy.... Unless they want a battle through eu courts!

If your bulb and lens are e marked and you inform your insurance co then they will be happy. Insurance companies do not check every component is appropriately marked or check the validity of the marks. In fact the insurance company very rarely sees the car. If you have informed them and they have allowed it then it's not a problem.

The Philips bulbs are tested in a certain range of cars, Philips are not about to test every car made in the last 20 years to ensure compatibility. But as mentioned if the bulb had the mark then it is deemed suitable for any e marked lamp (those tests are for American SAE standards.)

This whole argument and the reason we are having the discussion is because of one arrogant member basically says "I could fix your problem, it's very simple but I'm not going to because ethics prevents me from doing so" which is just plain rude and obnoxious, if you don't want to comment, don't comment. The laws he's quoting don't even cover the situation and you're defending him without any more knowledge than just happening to agree with him. It's the whole reason the the forum member had left and the thread is getting criticised.

The argument for LEDs is that they last longer and provide a better quality of light, usually whiter for better visibility, which can be seen easier and travel further without the need for reflectors. They respond quicker making them better for brake lights and they are less susceptible to the environment and vibration.

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I'm glad someone is in my boat!

Glad you've mentioned these Philips LEDs actually as I didn't want to buy **** from eBay for my law breaking activities

Without researching and reporting all the in-depth technicalities, I got the impression from the packaging on some bike lights I bought recently that cyclists are not allowed by UK law to ride with flashing lights (even LED ones!!).

But they all do in my experience.

Except me of course. I could explain how I can set them to flash, but I wouldn't want a potential police investigation or professional disbarrment.

AndyRKett said:

View attachment 165260

At the bottom of the U.K. Led website.....

Oh and no matter what uk laws say we have to recognise the EU laws, after all you keep quoting the ECE standards which are the EU laws we follow

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I don't know where the screenshot came from, possibly a mobile site, but the main UK site lighting page
http://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-li/car-lights/car-signaling-and-interior-lighting/signaling-lighting
Mentions ECE at the bottom, not SAE /ECE, but the page does not list any exterior LEDs only interior. One interior light product page
http://www.philips.co.uk/c-p/127996000KX2/x-treme-ultinon-led-led-interior-lighting
says "ECE beam pattern compliant*
Similar or better beam pattern than standard halogen lamp, to see and be seen better.* There is no ECE regulation existing for LED bulbs. ECE beam pattern compliance is tested on several commonly used luminaires where the LED bulb beam pattern matches the ECE-approved halogen beam pattern"
Confiming what I said about there being no way to ECE E mark an LED replacement for a filament lamp. This statement is misleading and doesnot mention intensity or colour compliance. The package images here
http://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-li/car-lights/car-signaling-and-interior-lighting/interior-lighting
Say interior or off road use only.
The UK has adopted EU approval standards but you can still fit a BSI kitemarked lamp (if you can find one).

Robert G8RPI.

bluejohn125 said:

Without researching and reporting all the in-depth technicalities, I got the impression from the packaging on some bike lights I bought recently that cyclists are not allowed by UK law to ride with flashing lights (even LED ones!!).

But they all do in my experience.

Except me of course. I could explain how I can set them to flash, but I wouldn't want a potential police investigation or professional disbarrment.

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The latest UK bike light rules do allow flashing lights if they meet certain requirements. One is that they are approved, but the only approval is kitemarked and most are not.

Robert G8RPI.

Pathaleon said:

I'm glad someone is in my boat!



Glad you've mentioned these Philips LEDs actually as I didn't want to buy **** from eBay for my law breaking activities

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Well I would buy some but my new car has all LED back lights and normal head lights.... Maybe I could get some for my DRLs

Probably an idea if a mod closes this now. The topic is derailing and the argument is getting silly now.

Pathaleon said:

Probably an idea if a mod closes this now. The topic is derailing and the argument is getting silly now.

Click to expand...

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I'd agree, I don't think we'll be seeing anything further that will contribute usefully to this discussion and some of the comments are getting personal. I've given this one some latitude because the main protagonists are well respected, long standing members who generally post quality material, but this has now gone beyond acceptable limits and the last thing I want to do is to have to start invoking the forum rules.

Time to chill out, folks.

Thread locked.