Styling Daylight Running Lights.

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Styling Daylight Running Lights.

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The non sense is that over the past 50 years, people have gotten used to wearing seatbelts (warnings or not). Why is it now that we suddenly need a warning?

Because it improves safety. If all the other holes in the swiss cheese line up on that rare occasion when you'd otherwise forget to fasten it, it could save your life. The argument that it's not worth incorporating a safety feature simply because we've managed without it in the past won't hold water.

Our insurance companies are a bit more lenient than in the UK, thankfully.

Insurance in the UK is based on the legal principle of strict disclosure, so if you declared the car hadn't been modified and the assessor found non-e marked bulbs, that would in theory be sufficient for them to void the policy, even if you'd bought the car used and they'd been fitted by a previous owner without your knowledge.

In practice, insurers would likely pay out if it were an innocent misrepresentation; so someone without technical knowledge who bought a car with LED's already fitted should still get a claim paid; but if you fitted them yourself, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on, even if a resulting claim had nothing to do with the lights.

More discussion on this topic here.

For my situation regarding insurance, I'm considering switching to only third party cover because as it stands, it's not worth me making a claim for much less than $10K.

For most drivers in the UK, third party cover costs more than fully comprehensive. The perverse logic is that drivers opting for third party cover have an attitude to risk which makes them more likely to have an accident :confused:.
 
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<SNIP>

For my situation regarding insurance, I'm considering switching to only third party cover because as it stands, it's not worth me making a claim for much less than $10K. Our insurance companies are a bit more lenient than in the UK, thankfully. For example, we no longer have to disclose speeding tickets or general mods, only power increasing engine mods. Likewise, they can't reject a claim on a technicality, only if your mod could have reasonably contributed to the accident (say you fit wheel studs that are too short and a wheel comes off fair game- they can't blame a wheel coming off on a non E marked globe).

I don't know what UK insurer you are with but I'm with one of the UK top 5 and they require ALL modifications and convictions (inc speeding fixed penalties) to be declared. They won't except any modifications andspecifically including alloy wheels and re-maping. Some insurures will use any reasion to deny a claim regardless of it's actual affect on he particulay incident. wont't make it go quicker but the insurers say it makes it more attractive to theives so must be declared.

Robert G8RPI.
 
I don't know what UK insurer you are with but I'm with one of the UK top 5 and they require ALL modifications and convictions (inc speeding fixed penalties) to be declared. They won't except any modifications andspecifically including alloy wheels and re-maping. Some insurures will use any reasion to deny a claim regardless of it's actual affect on he particulay incident. wont't make it go quicker but the insurers say it makes it more attractive to theives so must be declared.

Robert G8RPI.
He is in Australia from what I understand and is comparing to here in the UK!
 
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i installed led day light running in mine and they are great. only problem is that they are a bit fiddly to put it
 
This thread has given me a good laugh and cost another member of the forum.

It's one thing to say XYZ is illegal and if someoene knows the case and still decides to do something it's really up to them.

e marking simply states something is safe and does not cause electrical interference, which means you can buy a multitude of lights bulbs, LEDs and HIDs and still have the relevant e marks.

So in this instance I have to agree with the OP.

It certainly isn't in the spirit of the forum or community to say "I can easily fix your problem but I won't because I don't agree with what you're doing"
 
It certainly isn't in the spirit of the forum or community to say "I can easily fix your problem but I won't because I don't agree with what you're doing"

Hopefully you are not an explosives engineer. You might just help somebody make a bomb if they were to ask.
People are entitled to politely refuse help if they believe the action to be illegal.
 
Hopefully you are not an explosives engineer. You might just help somebody make a bomb if they were to ask.
People are entitled to politely refuse help if they believe the action to be illegal.


Not exactly comparable activities.

He's changing a daylight running light for an LED, not plotting acts of terrorism.

Thought you've brilliantly highlighted the ridiculous over the top reaction that posts on the forum get from the PC brigade.
 
<SNIP>
e marking simply states something is safe and does not cause electrical interference, which means you can buy a multitude of lights bulbs, LEDs and HIDs and still have the relevant e marks.

So in this instance I have to agree with the OP.

It certainly isn't in the spirit of the forum or community to say "I can easily fix your problem but I won't because I don't agree with what you're doing"

Hi Peter,
Two comments. I think you are confusing E marking with CE marking. E marking is specific to automotive parts and includes a reference number. They are all subject to independent verification. For lights it covers all important aspects of performance including brightness angles and colour. CE marking can apply to many things (except automotive parts) and covers many aspects including as you say, but not limited to, interference (EMC). A domestic LED lightbulb would be CE marked and coply with the EMC and Low Voltage directives. However the CE mark is placed by the manufacturer and apart from specific exceptions like medical and some safety device, there is no third party verification.

It is also not in the sprit of the forum to promote illegal activity of any sort. As I stated I'm a professional engineer. The ethics code of my professional body proscribes conducting or assisting illegal acts. It's highly unlikely, but if I did assist and someone searching the internet for information on me found the post they could report me.

Robert G8RPI.
 
Hi Peter,
Two comments. I think you are confusing E marking with CE marking. E marking is specific to automotive parts and includes a reference number. They are all subject to independent verification. For lights it covers all important aspects of performance including brightness angles and colour. CE marking can apply to many things (except automotive parts) and covers many aspects including as you say, but not limited to, interference (EMC). A domestic LED lightbulb would be CE marked and coply with the EMC and Low Voltage directives. However the CE mark is placed by the manufacturer and apart from specific exceptions like medical and some safety device, there is no third party verification.

It is also not in the sprit of the forum to promote illegal activity of any sort. As I stated I'm a professional engineer. The ethics code of my professional body proscribes conducting or assisting illegal acts. It's highly unlikely, but if I did assist and someone searching the internet for information on me found the post they could report me.

Robert G8RPI.


Firstly if your going to comment and accuse someone of being wrong about something you could at least get their name right.

No e-marks or ece marks as they are known apply to automotive electronics and there are a multitude of marks and differing regulations depending where approval was gained and what device is being approved, no one is talking about CE marks except you. However my point still stands an LED Bulb can still be E-marked and conform to standards set out by the system.

Given then uk lighting laws haven't been updated since 1989 and we gain most of our rules on lighting from the European laws and regulations I'd love to know exactly which illegal acts you would be breaking ? And in essence if you professional body and ethics prohibits you from assisting in such acts then it would be far more sensible to just not comment then there is no question at all of being reported.

So which specific European law would fitting an LED be breaking? The U.K. government wouldn't even make a definitive statement about the use of aftermarket HIDs and their legality if the people who are in charge of the laws can't decide then I'm not sure how you can be so black and white about the issue.
 
i installed led day light running in mine and they are great. only problem is that they are a bit fiddly to put it

Hi, the led you have fitted are they canbus free or have you had to fit resistors? If they are just direct replacement and canbus error free where did you get them and how much were they? Thanks. Mark
 
Firstly if your going to comment and accuse someone of being wrong about something you could at least get their name right.

No e-marks or ece marks as they are known apply to automotive electronics and there are a multitude of marks and differing regulations depending where approval was gained and what device is being approved, no one is talking about CE marks except you. However my point still stands an LED Bulb can still be E-marked and conform to standards set out by the system.

Given then uk lighting laws haven't been updated since 1989 and we gain most of our rules on lighting from the European laws and regulations I'd love to know exactly which illegal acts you would be breaking ? And in essence if you professional body and ethics prohibits you from assisting in such acts then it would be far more sensible to just not comment then there is no question at all of being reported.

So which specific European law would fitting an LED be breaking? The U.K. government wouldn't even make a definitive statement about the use of aftermarket HIDs and their legality if the people who are in charge of the laws can't decide then I'm not sure how you can be so black and white about the issue.

Sorry for the wrong name Andy.
The law you would be breaking in the UK is the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 as amended. The ammeded bit indicates that they HAVE been updated since then. I actually have paper copies of the both the lighting and Construction & Use regulations. I thought you were refering to CE marking as there is no E marking EMC requirement for lamps.
If you can E mark an LED replacement for a filament lamp as easily as you say why can't I find any for sale from the major maufacturers?
A link to one would be good
devil.gif


Robert G8RPI.
 
Sorry for the wrong name Andy.
The law you would be breaking in the UK is the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 as amended. The ammeded bit indicates that they HAVE been updated since then. I actually have paper copies of the both the lighting and Construction & Use regulations. I thought you were refering to CE marking as there is no E marking EMC requirement for lamps.
If you can E mark an LED replacement for a filament lamp as easily as you say why can't I find any for sale from the major maufacturers?
A link to one would be good
devil.gif


Robert G8RPI.

You can easily help him out, just because you are telling him how to do something doesn't mean you are responsible. Add a clause even!

Since this type of lighting would be legal offroad he could easily be using it for said purpose...

If I tell you how to pull the trigger on a gun, I am not responsible for murder am I?
 
As I said earlier, Phillips make 'street legal' LEDs.

http://www.usa.philips.com/c-m-li/Vision-led

DOT/ SAE and ECE certified.

Hi,
These are NOT ECE approved. They list the "original bulb type (ECE name)" but these replacement LEDs are only approved to North American (SAE) standards and even then only in specific makes, models and years. Currently less than 20 cars can fit them. see http://www.usa.philips.com/c-dam/b2...ED-Retrofit_Applications_Interactive_2015.pdf
Technically you cannot ECE approve an LED because there are no type numbers for LEDs. The first letter of the number indicates the technology (and base for small lamps) e.g. H = Halogen (filament) and D = Disccharge (HID / Xenon).

Robert G8RPI.
R
 
Here is the uk website
http://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-li/vision-led

Philips state all their bulbs are ece approved and if they were not they wouldn't be able to sell them in the UK....which they do.

You're trying to fight a battle on technicalities.

Which section of the lights regs 1989 makes fitting LEDs illegal ?

These bulbs are not canbus friendly but to overcome that Philips do make and sell a module to deal with this
 
You can easily help him out, just because you are telling him how to do something doesn't mean you are responsible. Add a clause even!

Folks with specialist skills and knowledge have a duty of care to ensure they're not using their skill and knowledge to promote irresponsible or illegal activity. IMO posting details on a public forum of how to modify non-CE marked lighting to fit to a car you reasonably believe will be used on a public road in the UK falls short of that duty of care, so I fully support gr8pi in choosing not to give details of how to do this here.

Since this type of lighting would be legal offroad he could easily be using it for said purpose...

and if you seriously believe that, I have this rather fine Opera House you might be interested in buying for a knock-down price, which will go quite nicely with the bridge I sold last year...

Philips state all their bulbs are ece approved and if they were not they wouldn't be able to sell them in the UK....which they do.

And if you read that weblink properly, you will discover that they are only street legal on the very specific list of vehicles in the attachment below. There is no mention of any Fiat in that list.

You'll find this discussion, with much the same sort of arguments for and against, on just about every car and police forum you might choose to visit. Both sides have strongly held views and I doubt very much that either side will hear what the other has to say, irrespective of how they express their point of view.

I'd agree the current UK regulations are hopelessly out of date, but IMO that's not a valid reason to knowingly break the law. I'd also agree it would be enormously helpful if the law were changed so that reputable lighting manufacturers could more easily offer properly certified LED replacements, and car manufacturers could properly integrate them into the design of the vehicle. The latter is needed because the power saving benefits of LED technology will be lost if you need to fit resistors to make them work properly. I'm sure it's only a question of time before all this happens.

Until then, I'd suggest anyone thinking of going this route consider carefully the risk of running into problems with the law and/or your insurance. You may think it's only a technicality, but insurance companies have been using technicalities for years to wriggle out of paying claims.
 

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Folks with specialist skills and knowledge have a duty of care to ensure they're not using their skill and knowledge to promote irresponsible or illegal activity. IMO posting details on a public forum of how to modify non-CE marked lighting to fit to a car you reasonably believe will be used on a public road in the UK falls short of that duty of care, so I fully support gr8pi in choosing not to give details of how to do this here.



and if you seriously believe that, I have this rather fine Opera House you might be interested in buying for a knock-down price, which will go quite nicely with the bridge I sold last year...



And if you read that weblink properly, you will discover that they are only street legal on the very specific list of vehicles in the attachment below. There is no mention of any Fiat in that list.

You'll find this discussion, with much the same sort of arguments for and against, on just about every car and police forum you might choose to visit. Both sides have strongly held views and I doubt very much that either side will hear what the other has to say, irrespective of how they express their point of view.

I'd agree the current UK regulations are hopelessly out of date, but IMO that's not a valid reason to knowingly break the law. I'd also agree it would be enormously helpful if the law were changed so that reputable lighting manufacturers could more easily offer properly certified LED replacements, and car manufacturers could properly integrate them into the design of the vehicle. I'm sure it's only a question of time before all this happens.

Until then, I'd suggest anyone thinking of going this route consider carefully the risk of running into problems with the law and/or your insurance. You may think it's only a technicality, but insurance companies have been using technicalities for years to wriggle out of paying claims.

I fully understand what you are saying but I have been part of many forums over the years and it is not nature of a people's community to comment saying "I know how to help you but I'm not going to help you" he may as well not bothered commenting as this has now been blown way out of proportion over an LED retrofit lamp.

I personally run standard incandescent bulbs for the same reason of insurance etc but I don't see that to be a reason not to help the OP as the "risk" lies in his hands should he decide to use the non E-Marked lamps.
 
Here is the uk website
http://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-li/vision-led

Philips state all their bulbs are ece approved and if they were not they wouldn't be able to sell them in the UK....which they do.

You're trying to fight a battle on technicalities.

Which section of the lights regs 1989 makes fitting LEDs illegal ?

These bulbs are not canbus friendly but to overcome that Philips do make and sell a module to deal with this


No, that is not correct. The UK site links to the AMERICAN pdf of approved vehicle fitments.
http://www.philips.co.uk/c-dam/b2c/...ster/pdf/PL1558_LED_Retrofit_Applications.pdf
They only meet SAE requirements.
You break two parts of the lighting regs, the one that requires a filament and the one that requires that it's approved. I'm not wasting my time looking up the exact reference.

Robert G8RPI.
 
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