I agree with that, it's all down to equipment level and quality of finish but like I said at the start if you bring the Clio up to similar spec then it's a very small price gap, then we're down to performance and handling and I believe there's bugger all in it from that perspective.

The base Clio is the better car in price alone, some people are on a budget and in that respect the Clio suits, but again as I've said having driven all 3 models contested here, the Clio is not the outright winner for me.

For you. The thing is it DOESN'T come down to equipment for everyone.

If it were me it'd be Clio, DS3 and then A500 in a distant last place.

Exactly, which is what I said several posts ago! Jeez, we're going round in circles here...................................

I don't think anybody would be discontented with any of the modern hot hatches today apart from maybe the Polo GTi.

Another car I actually like because of the engineers approach to improving the base car, is the Corsa VXR Nurburgring.

The fact that Jo Winklehock (BTTC & DTM legend) had a hand in it's development & it gets very expensive inverted mono-tube Bilstein dampers with progressive springs rathe than linear on normal car. This reminds me a little of my own Clio Trophy with it's very expensive mono-tube remote reservoir Sachs Motorsport dampers and Eibach springs which had Jean Ragnotti (Monte Carlo rally winner & tarmac rally legend in the mental R5 Turbo) do development work. There are obvious parallels to be drawn.

The Corsa though goes further and gets a Drexler mechanic LSD as well, then specially developed Brembo calipers & larger pads for greater friction area & redesigned vents on the discs to loose 1.5kgs per corner & forged alloy wheels that although 1/2 inch wider are 200g lighter than standard 18" OEM wheels. That's all unsprung weight loss which dramatically improves the cars dynamics.

It also gets a nice big tail pipe in each corner twin exit exhaust deposing the weird triangular centre exit on normal car. More aggressive mapping gives 202bhp & 207lb ft 0-62 6.5 143mph top end & 8m35sec ring lap yet a more compliant ride than standard.

That level of engineering input costs.

The price though is £22,295 though it does get half leather on the awesome Recaros which are same seats in an Audi RS4 etc

But again it highlights that I don't think a Clio RS200 should be £20k, a Corsa £22k a DS £23k a 500 SS with decent seats to match the rest £20k it seems so incredibly expensive for a small car.

I should add it names the 500 Tributo look completely stupid at £40k the same as a BMW 1M, and all you get is slightly more power from the Garrett turbo, Brembo 4pots, Sabrlt seats & a few carbon bits, you really would need to be daft to purchase one of those.

A little off topic but the Focus RS500 was launched with great fanfare & Fird took it to Nurburgring & said it was going to be quickest FWD car. And what happened, it was quite a bit slower than the 227bhp Megane R26R, not much in it over that Corsa Nurburgring model, which of course the R26R time was beaten by the Megane RS265 Trophy.

I know what you mean, at the time I bought my full fat Clio 182 it was terrific value for money, but prices have seriously gone North since then!

Stef

J333EVO said:

This reminds me a little of my own Clio Trophy with it's very expensive mono-tube remote reservoir Sachs Motorsport dampers and Eibach springs which had Jean Ragnotti (Monte Carlo rally winner & tarmac rally legend in the mental R5 Turbo) do development work.

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Tut tut! You also forget Ragnotti's fantastic driving in the Clio Maxi

I think people sometimes underestimate (and overestimate for that matter!!!!) the work that a good driver or engineer can do for a roadcar.

I doubt many on here will have ever heard his name, but Jean-Claude Vaucard who played a hand in designing the 205 T16, 405 T16 (based on the 205 T16, Citroen ZX Rallye Raid (based on the 405 T16 ), the Citroen Xsara Kit Car and the Citroen Xsara WRCar also played a major part in the development of the legendary 205 GTi road car.

Look back at most of the very best hot hatches and you'll see there is quite often a good development driver (Ragnotti) or a good engineer (Vaucard) behind the truly legendary ones.

To take it a step further, the best hot hatches will generally do well in low level motorsport too with little modification. 205 GTi's and Clio Rennosports are generally quite competitive little competition cars.

IMHO Fiat would do well to hire a proper engineer from a WRC team to give some input into their cars. Fiat seem to focus their efforts on making a car that tests well on Balocco rather than getting a guy like Ragnotti who knows exactly what a good drivers hot hatch need to be to develop the car into a class leading one rather than one whose only selling point over the comptition seems to be that it's a bit more charming then the competition.

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2011/cars/industry/07/sales_uk_june/1007.html
Seems that the Abarth style over substance approach as well as the dealer network means that Abarth sales are starting to drop off.

Given some of the discussions on the suspension setup on the 500 not just the A500 I often wonder if a multi-link suspension like the one on a Focus would have been better. Could the suspension from the Panda 4 x 4 be retrofitted so you not relying on a ARB to allow for a 'softer' setup ?
Last weeks top gear program (Season 17 Episode 3) touched on the benefits of the suspension setup on the McLaren MP4-12C where you 'couldn't feel the bumps' (although - this car is in a different price league).

loveshandbags said:

Given some of the discussions on the suspension setup on the 500 not just the A500 I often wonder if a multi-link suspension like the one on a Focus would have been better. Could the suspension from the Panda 4 x 4 be retrofitted so you not relying on a ARB to allow for a 'softer' setup ?
Last weeks top gear program (Season 17 Episode 3) touched on the benefits of the suspension setup on the McLaren MP4-12C where you 'couldn't feel the bumps' (although - this car is in a different price league).

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As Lewey mentioned in a Panda thread you need driveshafts in for the wheels to remain attached

Also, the 4x4 suspension would require different dampers and you can't get performance dampers (well at least ones which would suit a car with less suspension travel) for the 4x4.

Kind of a non-starter

306maxi said:

As Lewey mentioned in a Panda thread you need driveshafts in for the wheels to remain attached

Also, the 4x4 suspension would require different dampers and you can't get performance dampers (well at least ones which would suit a car with less suspension travel) for the 4x4.

Kind of a non-starter

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Thanks for the feedback - looks like I was 'talking' complete horse****. LOL.
Next I'll be suggesting to change the IHI T3 to a proper variable vane turbo like the one in the 911.

loveshandbags said:

Thanks for the feedback - looks like I was 'talking' complete horse****. LOL.
Next I'll be suggesting to change the IHI T3 to a proper variable vane turbo like the one in the 911.

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Nah

Thats only a part way compromise

Mid engined V6, twin Turbos & 4WD

Stuart J said:

Nah
Thats only a part way compromise
Mid engined V6, twin Turbos & 4WD

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Stuart J said:

Mine was a few Years ago, STi 2 Wagon lightly tweaked, ran 290 at Powerstaion on the rollers, just so fkin unreliable, lots of little things breaking & blew an Engine not long after I got it (std piston melt) , fitted a 3 lump & that blew a head gasket in 2003 on the Cannonball, unfortunately whilst lapping Imola, a great day cut short so when it finally arived back in the UK I had it repaired & moved it on. I also found it either gripped or didnt, it was running Bilsteins which were probably too hard, on bumpy corners at speed it just lost grip, stepped sideways & gripped again, scared the **** out of me a few times.
No more scoobs for me BUT I know others who have had no issues & love them. A car should always be what you want

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Since grimwau gave the 'green light' on this being an 'off topic' thread - I lifted this from PinkFloyd's thread - I noticed the Cannonball 'thing'. This was in Dublin last year in September and there was 'up-roar'. A colleague of my brother-in-law participated in it (there was 2 A500SS) that apparently kept up with some fairly fancy machinery. My understanding is that they are not welcome back and it was a once off.

I saw a documentary of one of the Cannonball runs thru N.E. Europe and one of the guys who ran a Evo something eventually changed to a M3 because he felt the turbo animal was going to blow up and at ? mph it was doing 10 mpg compare to 15-18mpg of the NA 'equivalent'.
I have included a more sedate picture of the OH on a cold day later on last year of a border county guy trying to flog a driving day but his track was so small you couldn't get out of second gear.

loveshandbags said:

Since grimwau gave the 'green light' on this being an 'off topic' thread - I lifted this from PinkFloyd's thread - I noticed the Cannonball 'thing'. This was in Dublin last year in September and there was 'up-roar'. A colleague of my brother-in-law participated in it (there was 2 A500SS) that apparently kept up with some fairly fancy machinery. My understanding is that they are not welcome back and it was a once off.

I saw a documentary of one of the Cannonball runs thru N.E. Europe and one of the guys who ran a Evo something eventually changed to a M3 because he felt the turbo animal was going to blow up and at ? mph it was doing 10 mpg compare to 15-18mpg of the NA 'equivalent'.
I have included a more sedate picture of the OH on a cold day later on last year of a border county guy trying to flog a driving day but his track was so small you couldn't get out of second gear.

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There are various cannonball type events, The Irish has been run 2 or 3 times & seemed to go fairly trouble free I believe.

We did the first 4 Cannonballruneurope's. When they started you really could hoon, the quick boys toping 200 but the foreign Police have clamped down & its probably a good thing, it attracted a lot of rich with nice cars but no idea how to drive & they didnt seem to care. We had I think 5 wrecks on one run including a 911 that aquaplained & went sideways in front of me at well over 100, a heart stopping moment for us but thankfully on a motorway so we we squeezed by as he nailed the barrier. No one got hurt but another totalled exotic.

We now do our own private runs, cruise at close to the speed limit on the motorways & have fun in the more scenic parts of Europe, anyone can drive at high speed on a motorway, its the car that limits you but on the twisties its agreat equaliser & so much more fun.

The days of hooning through Southern Europe averaging 120-130 for a trip are over, Eastern Europe is still fair game but I think not for much longer.

Report on the last one I did http://cannonballruneurope.co.uk/previous_events_2005.php

Note we got a mention at the end for being first back. The Car I built was a Skoda Octavia, 4x4, 356 bhp, Full KW suspension, bespoke roll bars, AP 4 pots etc etc, it was a match for most apart from straight line runs, where it maxed out just over 160 (a lot more on the speedo )

Stuart J said:

There are various cannonball type events, The Irish has been run 2 or 3 times & seemed to go fairly trouble free I believe.

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Thanks for posting that Stuart - it’s a 'brave' posting in our current PC environment. That car sounds like a beast. Turbos can’t compete with cc at the higher end.
Your web designer is top notch - very professional looking with the videos, etc. Gives a better flavour of the atmosphere than just pictures. A good one for the FF for their 'meets'.
Going back to the Irish cannonball. What I heard from my brother-in-law was that up in Donegal the local Garda commissioner came into the hotel where they were having their evening meal and got up on the 'podium' and gave a good talk on 'safe' driving, etc. Donegal has poor track history on motor related fatality rates. It seems his 'talk' had an impact - but it didn't stop the helicopters being called out in Limerick (which is affectionately known as stab city). Also heard that most of them were constantly in getting petrol so it was a mixture of 'blasting' and re-fuelling. So 'all in all' it went smoothly compared with the footage I have seen on TV. In an A500 I worked out that you would probably get about 112 miles on a tank if you averaged 15mpg.
Still I'd imagine the whole thing started as a laugh and then 'picked up'. The problem starts when you have guys with too much money thinking that their fast car will keep them safe.

loveshandbags said:

Your web designer is top notch - very professional looking with the videos, etc.

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Not mine, thats the Cannonball official site

Re the Irish one this years will be in September I believe, I have hints on the route but wont post or PM for obvious reasons

The chap you know who did it, ask if he met JJ, probably in an insanely loud Cerbra or a skyline, I did a couple of the Furballs with him & an absolutely top bloke

Stuart J said:

Not mine, thats the Cannonball official site

Re the Irish one this years will be in September I believe, I have hints on the route but wont post or PM for obvious reasons

The chap you know who did it, ask if he met JJ, probably in an insanely loud Cerbra or a skyline, I did a couple of the Furballs with him & an absolutely top bloke

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The connection is through my brother-in-law who loves his Beamer (they all started to drive them when I got rid of mine). It was through one of the guys that he worked 'to'. Company is going through a 'spot of bother' so I'd imagine funds will be tight this year. They drove pretty high end cars such that the b-i-l wanted to change to a 645 until I talked sense into him. What's kinda funny is that my b-i-l likes to get a spin in my 500 and is always asking about it but wouldn't be seen driving one . When he sees a A500 I get a text from him (practically none in Dublin). He gave me the small picture of the cars on the grass featuring the 2 A500s. One on them is an esseesse with a Monza and Sabelts. It's advertised on 'Deals on wheels' since last Feb at €25K+ ! The guy who owns it says that he wouldn't let his son drive it because it's too fast for the size of the car and now wants to sell it. He also complained about the price of petrol and lives down where my sister lives in the Drogheda area. I've have a passing interest in the Cannonball but would not be into the dinky bow etc. Plus I've had too many close calls not to have run ins with Gardai here. If you end up in 'trouble' legal representation is a must and even one's Solicitor treats you like a scumbag despite paying him the guts of €500-€1000 to present your 'case'. It's cheaper than 6 points or a 'near ban'. I posted a picture of a District court that deals with all motoring offences. It's a sobering thought with the armoured Police Van outside.

loveshandbags said:

Thanks for the feedback - looks like I was 'talking' complete horse****. LOL.
Next I'll be suggesting to change the IHI T3 to a proper variable vane turbo like the one in the 911.

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Been thinking about this one - if the problem is just the hubs and the dampers then it isn't that big a problem.

Companies like GAZ will make limited run dampers as specials (2of, 4of, etc) and at a reasonable price too.

When it comes to hubs it is generally a matter of either finding something appropriate (like Fiat did for the X1/9 back in the 70s - 128 front hubs are used on the front and rear) or getting them made. This is likely to be the most expensive bit but motorsport fabricators do this sort of thing regularly and it doesn't have to be the latest, greatest technology it needn't cost too much either. The alternative is to use the original hub with a CV stub fixed in place at the back of the hub simply to hold the wheel. It would need to be a machined down piece so not necessarily anything elaborate.

The thing is that fundamentally there isn't anything wrong with the suspension, it is focused to do what it does well to the exclusion of other things. Some longer travel would certainly help. ARBs aren't a bad thing either, yes they couple the two wheels on an axle so they are no longer independent but it does mean that you can run softer springs and dampers and still keep the cornering flat. Fully independent suspension is much harder to tune and if anything would lead to an even stiffer ride and more torque steer. Progressive rate springs help as does separating the bound and rebound but all this starts to get expensive for a car manufacturer to supply at a price. The new magnetic ride systems offer a fantastic alternative and effectively mapped suspension rates and no dependence on springs.

Thing is that the 500's rear suspension was never independent before the beam was modified. It's not strictly an ARB anyway as a true ARB connects two wheels which are more or less independent. You could argue that the whoe beam is an ARB but it's not really....

Glad they admitted that Hammond would have been better off bringing the Punto

306maxi said:

Thing is that the 500's rear suspension was never independent before the beam was modified. It's not strictly an ARB anyway as a true ARB connects two wheels which are more or less independent. You could argue that the whoe beam is an ARB but it's not really....

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I understand the design - I've never jacked mine up but I have enough experience with Fiat's rear axle assemblies to not really need to. It's still a whole world better than the leaf spring they used in the 70s and earlier 80s...