now Abarth claims the normal 1.4 T-Jet is 135bhp in an Abarth 500

exactly the same engine in other Fiats is rated at 150bhp e.g. Bravo T-Jet 150 Sport)

what are peoples experiences of the real output un-modified?

and then tuning this engine without changing the turbo or exhaust or intercooler?

and then what is the realistic limiting factor?

The A500 is limited entirely and solely by the ECU - the SS upgrade is just ECU map. The filter makes no difference worth mentioning (more gimmick than anything else).

Just popping an SS ECU on to the car (assuming it is paired) will give you the missing power.

From what I can gather this is largely just a market control exercise to ensure that the AGP is on a par performance wise. If the A500 used the same engine setup and power figures it would be noticibly faster than an AGP (at least in potential). There are allegedly packaging issues that meant the A500 can't use the same turbo arrangement as the AGP so the SS upgrade is as far as they can take the IHI kitted engine (and provide a warranty that means something) and the standard A500 is the downgrade (am I making any sense?).

The fact they can squeeze all the kit into the AC means it is largely just marketing tosh. The 695 manages to do quite nicely too.

Several people have access to the SS map & can simply remap the stock car with that map, a fairly inexpensive way to get the extra power. Its a safe bet as you know the cars designed to take at least that amount.
The next best upgrade for many is driver training, its a pretty acomplished package which many struggle to get the full potential out of.

I think the cars limiting factor is high speed stability, heavy braking at very high speed in an aparent straight line can lead to a quite un nerving tendancy to steer from the back wheels.

I'm not sure where this high speed instability business is coming from.

I've tested mine in all sorts of conditions and I've played around with tyre pressures and the only time it has become significantly unstable is when the rear tyre pressures were too high *or* the car was a seriously uneven surface.

My personal opinion on this is that the drivers in question are not actually braking in a straight line - they think they are but the reality is another matter.

The rear of the A500 is a little loose - on purpose but it is not inherently unstable in a straight line.

I agree with the driver training though - most drivers on the road today are clueless, not only of how to drive effectively, efficiently and quickly but also of what a car's potential really is.

I don't profess to be an expert - I've been soundly beaten out on the race track enough times to know I still have a lot to learn - but I do have a pretty good idea of how far you can take a car, especially like a small FWD hatchback and what it can't do. Every time I've taken a passenger around in their own car on a track they have been shocked, surprised and occasionally scared stupid as they begin to realise just how fast their car really is and I am not talking about big powerful machines. Even the modest little old seicento is beyond the ken of the average driver when it comes to ultimate performance. The general description I got when demonstrating the A500 was that it was "rat up a drainpipe" quick - nothing could touch it.

jimbro1000 said:

I'm not sure where this high speed instability business is coming from.

I've tested mine in all sorts of conditions and I've played around with tyre pressures and the only time it has become significantly unstable is when the rear tyre pressures were too high *or* the car was a seriously uneven surface.

My personal opinion on this is that the drivers in question are not actually braking in a straight line - they think they are but the reality is another matter.

Click to expand...

We had a major scare at around 120 MPH on a foreign motorway when my Wife had to do an emergency stop whilst in a straight line, the rear stepped left & stayed going left, she ended up steering towards the Armco for some distance to stop the car turning right, I had a major fishtail at over 100 in a similar situation. Ive driven quite a few cars & found it un nerving to say the least, especialy as it only happens sometimes. Its probably camber induced, I thought it might be as the rear of the cars light but in has happened with a full boot. The cars still on the original Pirellis & a few say the car is more stable on other brands. we still have 4 new ones to use up so that experiment wont come for a while

I have spent long hours on our rolling road with our demo,test 500 abarth
the car is std apart from our remap and air filter
The most ive seen out of it is 190 bhp and 135 ibf
dose go very well
The turbo is very small as you all know im sure.
We have Mitos and 500s runing at 180 bhp with no problems
much better and nicer to drive over the ESS ESSE

I Remapped an 500 ESS ESSE last weeks and he is over then moon
with it

The intercoolers set up looks restrictive ? but its nice to keep
the car looking std where poss i think

Adie AHM

Stuart J said:

We had a major scare at around 120 MPH on a foreign motorway when my Wife had to do an emergency stop whilst in a straight line, the rear stepped left & stayed going left, she ended up steering towards the Armco for some distance to stop the car turning right, I had a major fishtail at over 100 in a similar situation. Ive driven quite a few cars & found it un nerving to say the least, especialy as it only happens sometimes. Its probably camber induced, I thought it might be as the rear of the cars light but in has happened with a full boot. The cars still on the original Pirellis & a few say the car is more stable on other brands. we still have 4 new ones to use up so that experiment wont come for a while

Click to expand...

There is another possibility, especially in light of my recent rear brake experience. The rear calipers on my car have started to stick on to the point that I have gone through a set of rear pads in about 300 miles (the previous 14000 had made very little impact). If just one of the rear calipers was sticking it would have a drastic impact on stability. Again this didn't happen on mine, both failed at roughly the same rate (one side is decidedly better than the other but both were grabbing and dragging badly).

Compared with my Seicento, which really does have stability problems (I want it that way thankyouverymuch), the A500 is bliss and almost pathetically easy to drive. The Sei will literally stand on the front wheels under heavy braking (no ABS) and lift the rear wheels clear which results in some fairly frightening reversed steering if you aren't ready for it.

adie98 said:

I have spent long hours on our rolling road with our demo,test 500 abarth
the car is std apart from our remap and air filter
The most ive seen out of it is 190 bhp and 135 ibf
dose go very well
The turbo is very small as you all know im sure.
We have Mitos and 500s runing at 180 bhp with no problems
much better and nicer to drive over the ESS ESSE

I Remapped an 500 ESS ESSE last weeks and he is over then moon
with it

The intercoolers set up looks restrictive ? but its nice to keep
the car looking std where poss i think

Adie AHM

Click to expand...

Looking at those figures you've quoted am I right in saying the power was very much at the top end and possibly by upping the rev limit? If that is the case then the intercoolers can't be that restrictive or you wouldn't have been close to 190bhp...

jimbro1000 said:

There is another possibility, especially in light of my recent rear brake experience. The rear calipers on my car have started to stick on to the point that I have gone through a set of rear pads in about 300 miles (the previous 14000 had made very little impact). If just one of the rear calipers was sticking it would have a drastic impact on stability. Again this didn't happen on mine, both failed at roughly the same rate (one side is decidedly better than the other but both were grabbing and dragging badly).

Click to expand...

Probably unlikely, the first big scare was when the car only had a only few thousand miles on it. The car was serviced at 18K & I specifically asked that the pads be checked for wear as a few of those miles had been quite hard & I wanted the pads changed if there was any risk of them not doing another 18K which I was assured they would.

Also the vibes Im picking up is the rear brake problem is possibly a corrosion one due to our climate, road salt etc. As the Abarth is the Wifes "toy" it stays tucked away in the winter, its only had one proper run since October although it has a few smaller ones around the village, mainly to rotate wheels etc & to keep things turning over so it hasnt seen salt at all so "hopefully" our callipers will fare better.

I will add I find the brakes pretty impressive for a stock system, the fact they are so good at pulling up the front may contribute & I would much rather stop excitedly than crash

Well according to my local franchise there was absolutely nothing wrong with my rear brakes 300 miles before they seized. Personally I do not believe they even looked at them as any corrosion would have been apparent at the time.

There is no doubt about the effectiveness of the brakes at all.

jimbro1000 said:

Well according to my local franchise there was absolutely nothing wrong with my rear brakes 300 miles before they seized. Personally I do not believe they even looked at them as any corrosion would have been apparent at the time.

There is no doubt about the effectiveness of the brakes at all.

Click to expand...

Westover know what a picky person I am, we had a couple of Major warranty issues, one requiring the inside of the car to be stripped to remove a small lake, I explained I was a pedantic b*****d before they started & I have to admit they did an absolutely faultless job. Since then we have always had excellent service & I have no reason to believe they didnt check the brakes, lets hope Im right

What turbo is on A500 a vl38??

Tom 91 said:

What turbo is on A500 a vl38??

Click to expand...

Yes, same as the mito 155 too.

RobW said:

now Abarth claims the normal 1.4 T-Jet is 135bhp in an Abarth 500

exactly the same engine in other Fiats is rated at 150bhp e.g. Bravo T-Jet 150 Sport)

Click to expand...

Although the issues have been detailed in this thread about why the outputs are different and I agree with all said, it should be pointed out that the VL38 turbo used does not hold boost and cannot ultimately generate the same amount of sustained performance as the VL36 as found in the engines that FIAT do rate at 150BHP. This is the only practical difference between the A500/Mito engines and Bravo 150/Abarth Punto setups.

adie98 said:

I have spent long hours on our rolling road with our demo,test 500 abarth
the car is std apart from our remap and air filter
The most ive seen out of it is 190 bhp and 135 ibf
dose go very well
The turbo is very small as you all know im sure.
We have Mitos and 500s runing at 180 bhp with no problems
much better and nicer to drive over the ESS ESSE

I Remapped an 500 ESS ESSE last weeks and he is over then moon
with it

The intercoolers set up looks restrictive ? but its nice to keep
the car looking std where poss i think

Adie AHM

Click to expand...

Hmm interesting, might have to look into this with mine once ive had it a wee while.

chavril said:

Hmm interesting, might have to look into this with mine once ive had it a wee while.

Click to expand...

TMC seems to be the only way that you can boost the performance of the car without someone knowing about it.
Is your car a standard one or is it esseesse'd ?

Stuart J said:

The next best upgrade for many is driver training

Click to expand...

Sorry but just started reading this thread and that cracked me up, signature worthy stuff

multispoke said:

TMC seems to be the only way that you can boost the performance of the car without someone knowing about it.
Is your car a standard one or is it esseesse'd ?

Click to expand...

Esseesse mate.

chavril said:

Esseesse mate.

Click to expand...

You're going to have plenty of power. Although for approx. £300 it is good value for an extra 15 horses. I would have to spend a lot more on a 1.4 NA to get that. If you going with grajo on the trip you will notice in on the Nuburgring. Braking will become just as important but that can be done with some really good brake fluid. There's another guy who really knows his stuff in this department.