Oakley28 said:

Ah but did you win...

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He would have won, the Abarth is way quicker than the Swift

I'm on the motorway every single day and I can tell you it's the people who drive slow who are the most dangerous. I'm not condoning speeding, but anyone who says they haven't raced on a public road is a hypocrite

DraigFlag87 said:

And at your age, you should be having more fun before you get too old! :slayer:

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I like this

Most things i read from 306Maxi is a buzzkill.

sikersh said:

He would have won, the Abarth is way quicker than the Swift

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The new swift isnt slow though is it?

Oakley28 said:

I like this

Most things i read from 306Maxi is a buzzkill.

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It's called driving sensibly and choosing where I put my foot down and not wearing out 3 or 4 sets of tyres out in about a year...

How I love these threads, driving fast on the road can be safe & it can be unsafe. Dangerous driving & speed are 2 completely different things & the sooner the Authorities & the populist press wise up to that the better.
30 in a 30 past a school is unsafe, 150 on an empty motorway is far safer.

2 people seeing who has the quickest car can be fun as long as you know your limits & your cars limits, the roads suitable & the red mist dosent decend.

There is no such thing as a safe speed - even zero is unsafe sometimes.

The "risk" increases in proportion with speed but it also increases with conditions, road type, driver, pedestrians and congestion.

The big question is - do you know how good the other drivers on the road are? In the real world the answer is no. Do they know what to do when a car zips past them way above the speed limit? Again the answer is mostly no.

It may not be you that has an accident, it may not be anyone in the car that gets hurt but other drivers on the road are just as vulnerable and while they might be sticking to the legal limits they can be forced into an accident that seems unlikely and unexpected.

99% of driving fast on the road isn't what you are doing, it is what everyone else (not just the drivers) are doing. If you can't navigate those dangers without putting the other people out there in a compromised situation then don't drive fast - it is simple.

Accidents happen when something unexpected happens - the things you haven't planned for. The faster you are going the more it is going to hurt, cost, etc. So lets stop talking about being muppets on the road - if you want to do this sort of thing, either keep it to yourself or take it on to the track!

jimbro1000 said:

There is no such thing as a safe speed - even zero is unsafe sometimes.

The "risk" increases in proportion with speed but it also increases with conditions, road type, driver, pedestrians and congestion.

The big question is - do you know how good the other drivers on the road are? In the real world the answer is no. Do they know what to do when a car zips past them way above the speed limit? Again the answer is mostly no.

It may not be you that has an accident, it may not be anyone in the car that gets hurt but other drivers on the road are just as vulnerable and while they might be sticking to the legal limits they can be forced into an accident that seems unlikely and unexpected.

99% of driving fast on the road isn't what you are doing, it is what everyone else (not just the drivers) are doing. If you can't navigate those dangers without putting the other people out there in a compromised situation then don't drive fast - it is simple.

Accidents happen when something unexpected happens - the things you haven't planned for. The faster you are going the more it is going to hurt, cost, etc. So lets stop talking about being muppets on the road - if you want to do this sort of thing, either keep it to yourself or take it on to the track!

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I think you have about summed it up fairly well, correct speed for the circumstances, constantly asses risk, drive within the limits of your vehicle & more importantly yourself. If it feels dangerous or you start to get an adrenalin rush then "slow down" it is to fast

If your last comment re muppets was aimed at me I certainly do not advocate dangerous driving of any sort, I just feel the modern perception that speed whilst a contributing factor is responsible for most accidents is just wrong but its easy to prosecute & the government promoting that justifies the cash cow they have created.
The technology is there to catch cars following too close on motorways, why not roll that out, Im sure many more accidents could be avoided if people left a big enough gap but I could go on forever.

Cars are to be enjoyed by those who love them but not at the expense of others

jimbro1000 said:

There is no such thing as a safe speed - even zero is unsafe sometimes.

The "risk" increases in proportion with speed but it also increases with conditions, road type, driver, pedestrians and congestion.

The big question is - do you know how good the other drivers on the road are? In the real world the answer is no. Do they know what to do when a car zips past them way above the speed limit? Again the answer is mostly no.

It may not be you that has an accident, it may not be anyone in the car that gets hurt but other drivers on the road are just as vulnerable and while they might be sticking to the legal limits they can be forced into an accident that seems unlikely and unexpected.

99% of driving fast on the road isn't what you are doing, it is what everyone else (not just the drivers) are doing. If you can't navigate those dangers without putting the other people out there in a compromised situation then don't drive fast - it is simple.

Accidents happen when something unexpected happens - the things you haven't planned for. The faster you are going the more it is going to hurt, cost, etc. So lets stop talking about being muppets on the road - if you want to do this sort of thing, either keep it to yourself or take it on to the track!

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Completely agree. I won't lie and say I don't speed excessively at times. But when I do I do it on roads where the only casualty is likely to be myself. I can deal with hurting or killing myself, but my nightmare is coming round a corner, losing it, and hitting someone else and killing them.

That's why this is my favourite bit of road -> http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&l...d=pCZGuer-iI3r-WtqT4hTBQ&cbp=12,72.18,,0,11.1

You can push quite hard and the only person you're going to hurt as long as you don't chuck it into one of the few blind corners is yourself. But "racing" another car is just silly as you don't know what the driver is going to do and you might find yourself becoming part of their accident and there's always the chance that you might be concentrating so hard on them that you miss something which causes you to have an accident.....

On the road I linked to I'm happy enough to drive at 90% of what I feel I'm capable of and as soon as I see another car coming in the distance from in front or behind I back off as it's the right thing to do. People have a right to drive safely on public roads, it's a privelige for me to be able to push my car and my abilities. It's when people abuse that privelige that speed cameras and traffic calming measures get installed.....

I know (or have known) enough people over the years who've ignored the above advice and paid the price, or someone else has as a result.

Even on the track accidents happen and two of my friends have died in racing incidents where safety measures abound and emergency services are on hand to pick up the pieces. They weren't stupid or over confident of their abilities, on the contrary they were some of the best drivers I have ever known but it didn't make any difference. Ironically in both cases no other cars were involved - when two cars meet on track it normally gets messy but the relative speeds tend to be small. When a car hits a wall at full speed it is another matter.

On the road there is way too much street furniture, not to mention "soft targets" to hit in and around towns and if you think the countryside is any better I really don't recommend hitting a tree, even a small one.

The motorway and even dual carriageways are actually the safest places on our roads, largely because everyone is thinking along the same lines (stay in lane and go faster) and paying more attention. A lot of accidents happen when people leave the motorway, slow down and then have their brains switch off because there is so much less information and detail to take in.

I've been in three accidents in my time - two of them on track and one on the road where I thought I knew what was going on but made a stupid error in judgement compounded by a diesel slick on the road. I'll be kicking myself for it until the day I die as it really was that stupid. The accidents on track have both been other people spinning out in front of me and having nowhere to go but through them - even then there was time to think "oh crap" and make sure you hit the softest part but the damage was still huge. The worst one split the front of my car like a banana being peeled, both of us walked away from that one and we're still good friends (another advantage of racing on track - I make a point of not racing against people I don't like as it gets really ugly) but it didn't mean we got away without sore necks and wrists for a while.

If this sort of thing can happen on track (and it does, regularly) even with seriously skilled drivers that trust each other not to do something stupid, then how can you reasonably expect to get away with it on the road when someone you don't know tries it on?

Maxi what you said is pretty much what i have been telling you since i joined this forum. Even the road you quoted is a leg of the famous EVO triangle which i drive a lot on my own, and with the Abarth crew. I think as much as you don't want to admit it, you and me both know that the roads around here are safe to speed on at certain times of the year.

Personally i think that we all as road users, have to respect others judgement. A biker got caught doing 153 MPH last week just up the road from me, he too was probably just taking advantage of the empty road.

DraigFlag87 said:

Maxi what you said is pretty much what i have been telling you since i joined this forum. Even the road you quoted is a leg of the famous EVO triangle which i drive a lot on my own, and with the Abarth crew. I think as much as you don't want to admit it, you and me both know that the roads around here are safe to speed on at certain times of the year.

Personally i think that we all as road users, have to respect others judgement. A biker got caught doing 153 MPH last week just up the road from me, he too was probably just taking advantage of the empty road.

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No it's not, if you go on nice empty roads like the A543 from the A5 to Denbigh then great, but all of your videos are on what are, tbh fairly narrow roads. The fact that you wear your tyres out in 3-5k where others with Abarth's get 10k or more out of them says a lot. I've done almost 18k (minus maybe 3k on the winter tyres) out of my 500's tyres so far and still have 6 in the centre of the tread and 5mm on the edges. I reckon I'll get close to 30k miles on this set of tyres 6-10 times more than what you get..... Now I definitely think the Abarth will wear tyres quicker, it just will, but to be going through tyres that quickly says a lot about the way you drive.

If I was to cast a critical eye over your videos I'd pick this one out because when I first watched it I just winced in pain but didn't say anything because I knew the reaction I'd get....

http://www.youtube.com/user/D41H4T5U#p/u/11/z-w5y1WXQYU

The thing that stands out for me is the fact that you seem to go from no steering to the full amount needed in no time whatsoever. Tyres don't like being wrenched from one side to the other quickly whilst rolling on abrasive tarmac. Wind your lock in more slowly (smoother!!!!) and off more smoothly. Tyre squeal on fairly low speed corners is trying to tell you something, the tyres are saying I CAN'T TAKE ANYMORE!!!!!!

In all honesty I drive probably not too much slower than you do in some bits of your video, but I'm far more progressive with my car and wind lock on/off more slowly, lift for corners rather than accelerate and then brake and I tend to take wider/gentler lines into corners. At the end of the day I have most of the fun you probably have but for a lot less in tyres and I'm driving a slower car which doesn't handle as well Personally I only drive properly quick on roads where I can cut corners (safely because I can see the road ahead) and take more of a "racing" line through the corner because on most roads you just end up having to brake to lose speed and take a tighter line which loses you speed and tbh that's just boring.

Well here come the excuses, firstly i don't drive like that really, for one i was concentrating a lot on the camera not falling off the car and 2 i wanted to see how well the mic would pick up tyre squeal. I purposely made it dramatic for the sake of it, i know the lines are far from efficient in the corners, and believe me, tyre squeal is not something i encounter regularly. I am a very smooth driver. I try to remember not to take things too seriously though, if you do, you start removing the fun factor!

DraigFlag87 said:

Well here come the excuses, firstly i don't drive like that really, for one i was concentrating a lot on the camera not falling off the car and 2 i wanted to see how well the mic would pick up tyre squeal. I purposely made it dramatic for the sake of it, i know the lines are far from efficient in the corners, and believe me, tyre squeal is not something i encounter regularly. I am a very smooth driver. I try to remember not to take things too seriously though, if you do, you start removing the fun factor!

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Good If that's how you drove all the time then that's just silly and a waste of tyres

Stuart J said:

If your last comment re muppets was aimed at me....

Cars are to be enjoyed by those who love them but not at the expense of others

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The comments weren't aimed at anyone in particular - although I'm sure there are some people much more deserving of the description than others, most people who drive like that don't drive their car for long before it all goes pear shaped.

And I just can't agree more with your final comment there!

All the comments about tyre squeal - tyres can be made to howl in many ways and being too harsh with the steering and over driving the car will do just that but there are other ways but this is the most damaging bar overheating them and then doing the same.

Spinning the wheels in a straight line doesn't actually do much except waste fuel and potentially rip the tarmac up.

Once you get the steering smooth enough the tyre squeal becomes a useful warning that you have pushed the car to its limits. The noise results in heat in the tyres as the rubber blocks vibrate (friction and sound waves at an atomic level are closely connected but that's for the science bods to worry about) and as the tyres goes past their critical temperature it all goes to pot, the tyres shred themselves and your steering and brakes are next to useless. So generally if you can hear you tyres it isn't just a bit of a bad thing, its a lot of a bad thing.

That said if you're trying to push the car to it's limits (trackday for example) it can help you to find the fine line between success, looking like an idiot and total disaster.

jimbro1000 said:

The comments weren't aimed at anyone in particular - although I'm sure there are some people much more deserving of the description than others, most people who drive like that don't drive their car for long before it all goes pear shaped.

And I just can't agree more with your final comment there!

All the comments about tyre squeal - tyres can be made to howl in many ways and being too harsh with the steering and over driving the car will do just that but there are other ways but this is the most damaging bar overheating them and then doing the same.

Spinning the wheels in a straight line doesn't actually do much except waste fuel and potentially rip the tarmac up.

Once you get the steering smooth enough the tyre squeal becomes a useful warning that you have pushed the car to its limits. The noise results in heat in the tyres as the rubber blocks vibrate (friction and sound waves at an atomic level are closely connected but that's for the science bods to worry about) and as the tyres goes past their critical temperature it all goes to pot, the tyres shred themselves and your steering and brakes are next to useless. So generally if you can hear you tyres it isn't just a bit of a bad thing, its a lot of a bad thing.

That said if you're trying to push the car to it's limits (trackday for example) it can help you to find the fine line between success, looking like an idiot and total disaster.

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All good points, you obviously know a bit about control.

To anyone who dosent ask a genuine experienced race driver with a few trophies to his name to take you round a track in your car, the first thing that will amaze you is how fast you are going, once you have got over that you will see the driver dosent appear to be trying, just super smooth & balanced.

I always remember a great statement by Emerson Fittipaldi, it goes something like "my aim is to win driving as slowly as possible"

This is a great demo of car control, a soaking wet brands a high powered Porsche, one thats running Toyo R888's (a dry trackday tyre) & a skilled driver. Just look at the lack of wheel fighting & listen to the way the power is fed in, note all the 4Wd stuff including a GTR that gets gobbled up.

Stuart J said:

All good points, you obviously know a bit about control.

To anyone who dosent ask a genuine experienced race driver with a few trophies to his name to take you round a track in your car, the first thing that will amaze you is how fast you are going, once you have got over that you will see the driver dosent appear to be trying, just super smooth & balanced.

I always remember a great statement by Emerson Fittipaldi, it goes something like "my aim is to win driving as slowly as possible"

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Definitely. Went for a drive in a co-workers modified Clio 172 and we were going ridiculously fast with seemingly little effort.

Stuart J said:

This is a great demo of car control, a soaking wet brands a high powered Porsche, one thats running Toyo R888's (a dry trackday tyre) & a skilled driver. Just look at the lack of wheel fighting & listen to the way the power is fed in, note all the 4Wd stuff including a GTR that gets gobbled up.

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Wow - nice work. What's scary is I've never driven Brands in the proper wet (cold and damp maybe) but I could still tell exactly where he was on the track by looking at the little bit of trackside you can see in the quarterlight!

Driving in the wet on track is scary - no doubt about it but it is also one of the most thrilling things you can do. My old FRC spec punto was the quickest thing around Snetterton in the wet against some seriously quick cars - beautifully balanced and underpowered is actually a brilliant recipe for this sort of thing. My Dallara is another matter, you have to be super smooth and it still gets you sometimes.

I took a monster Clio 172 (about 250bhp) around Brands a few years ago and was lapping faster than anyone else on the day - this was a damp february day, the main competition being another racer in his Ferrari 360. I'm not normally a fan of the Clio but that particular car on that day was one of the best I've ever driven - shame that you could only do a few laps at a time before the brakes cooked. On the same day my stock standard Sei Sporting was still among the quickest simply because you can carry so much speed on that particular circuit. There are only 4 places where you have to brake and the rest is down to how big your balls are.

The only track work I do these days is driving for passenger rides and every single one of them will agree with Stuart's comments - they simply can't believe how fast they are going. If you really want to surprise them you drive their own cars and show them just how inadequate their driving really is (and why a 55bhp sei sporting has just left them for dead on track).

It is isn't really about how fast your car is on the straights - it is how fast you can go through the corners.

jimbro1000 said:

Wow - nice work. What's scary is I've never driven Brands in the proper wet (cold and damp maybe) but I could still tell exactly where he was on the track by looking at the little bit of trackside you can see in the quarterlight!

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Yep Mikes a talented chap with a pile of silverware to show for it.
http://www.mikewilds.com/racing.html
http://www.mikewilds.com/racing.html
Booking 1/2 a day with someone like that is a far better performance upgrade than a few hundred on a remap & its a mod you can take from car to car. I paid him to spend a few hours 1-1 with my 19 year old son at Bruntingthorpe & he learnt so much.

Sounds familiar - my tutor was a similarly experienced chap but he never progressed to F1, he just moved sideways (as it were) after a particularly hideous accident (inhaling racing fuel when the fuel tank bursts is extremely unpleasant).

He is perpetually urging me to get more tuition from other people to broaden my experience but while I'm all out of cash and out of the racing scene it is unlikely to happen.

On the other hand I've had people asking me for tuition - I still look up to all these other guys and I always find it a bit of a shock when someone comes to me. Maybe I should be charging for all this advice....