General LED Fog light/cornering bulbs
- Thread starter Holser
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General LED Fog light/cornering bulbs
Nello
Established member
TrevC
Established member
Its been said many times, so apologies to anyone reading it again, but if you are in the UK (and probably the EU as well) there is no way of retro-fitting l.e.d lamps in place of filament lamps that is road legal.
With possibly the exception of the reversing lamp
Info posted on this elsewhere.
Legality aside then we have seen many reports of stuff working, not working, working but with after glow, and ..........
I think the bottom line to this whole "can I change from X to Y" is a complete lottery from vehicle to vehicle and more importantly the vehicles body computer "firmware" code. This latter point can mean that even same make, model and year of production vehicles can respond differently.
I could be really bitchy and say if you wanted LED cornering lights then buy a Fiat, Audi, Mercedes, other that has those.
It is a fact that all modern cars are becoming seriously "locked down" and deviation from factory production configuration is very likely to be more trouble than it is worth.
Of course there is nothing to stop anyone pimping their ride with additional features/functions/luminaries not controlled directly by the modern vehicle body computers.
By all means anyone can try anything they want but results will vary.
Fog lamps are technically accessory lamps and do not come under the same rules and regs as your normal head lamps because a car does not have to have them.
I've not fully research EU rules and regs regarding the difference between production fitted and homolated lighting units and how this maps to "accessory" fitments. Anyone could fit an accessory that blinds drivers and in court proven to be not legal or some other offence/get out clause.
This is all legal stuff.
I was addressing body computer management of "STUFF".
It is the ambiguity in the UK lighting regs of 1989 that states bulbs need be "incandescent" that causes problems and confusion over the installation of LED lighting to cars now.
The EU lighting regulations allow the installation of other lights like HIDs and LED headlights on new car under type testing, however they don't cover the installation of new LED lights on older cars, as the old type testing would apply to those cars when they where tested.
Basically if its fitted from new its fair game.
The UK lighting regs of 1989 do however allow the installtion of fog lamps a maximum of two that must be no more than 400 mm from the side of the car and that can be adjusted from the front of the car (i,e no internal adjustment controls required) and does not specify any specific construction or bulb type.
So in this instance you can use LEDs in foglights on the front of a car.
The offence would come if you where using them in such a way that you dazzled people but not from the installation and use its self. The normal rules and regs about the use of fog lights then come into play.
So in this instance Holser is perfectly within his rights to fit some LED bulbs to his car in place of the foglight bulbs.
Well I'm not going to argue (argue is the wrong term as discuss is the more appropriate term) but there are a whole load of potentially conflicting issues/facts that go well beyond the "will this LED bulb work in my car".
Legally / technically *ANY* change to your vehicle specification / fitments / etc need to be approved by your insurance company for their full insurance cover to be valid.
Yes you can upgrade your entertainment system but unless notified and approved if it is stolen then they not pay out. No real big deal.
The "crunch" comes when other vehicle modifications are made. TRUST ME you do NOT want to get into that loop with insurance. Insurance companies will do/take every get out clause they can to avoid paying out and especially if injuries or large damage payouts are required.
But I stress again there are two/three matters with any vehicle upgrade/change:
1) is the change technically compatible or can be made to be so
2) is it legal (might well be see 3)
3) are you insured for that change as notified by you to you insurer
I guess 90%+ of the time some people get away with uninsured/required to be notified changes to their vehicles till **** happens. Then they could find themselves paying damages/care cost for the rest of their working lives.
If you think I'm being a bit of a paranoid **** head then lets face facts.
I/you run over a person:
My/your insurance company says our insurance is void because of x y z (examples being undisclosed modifications or modifications that do not comply with required vehicle legislation requirements)
It goes to Court and Court rules the insurance company is correct and we are uninsured and thus me/you have top pay/compensate (read life long disabled person and all their care costs for the rest of their lives - including after you are dead so your estate and what you thought you to left to you family is all but gone)
Sorry but f*ing with potential legal loop holes or ambiguity in regulations is a fools game unless your insurance company approves such a change and even then they could be deemed to be wrong.
Personally I went into great research and detail about replacing my 500X's reversing light with an LED replacement. Regarding outside running lights it was the only light that was not tied down wrt homolagation/other legislation. I still informed and got permission from the underwriters that this change was covered by them.
Now to totally screw the picture (as I play devil's advocate with myself) in theory I think I could fit a 1 million lumen LED cabin light in may 500X. This would comply with all vehicle regulations (I think but have not fully checked) but my blinding "sun 500X" that caused or could cause an accident might find itself in difficulty in a court of law. Possibly nothing to do with vehicle lighting regulations but possibly some obscure "blinding" law.
And for some fun:
o It is illegal to carry a plank along a pavement. Yes This is an offence under s 54 of the Metropolitan Police Act 1839. Other offences covered by s 54 include flying kites, playing annoying games, and sliding on ice or snow in the street.
o It is illegal to beat or shake any carpet or rug in any street. However, beating or shaking a doormat is allowed before 8am. Yes This is an offence under s 60 of the Metropolitan Police Act 1839. In other districts, it is an offence under s 28 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847. Other offences covered by s 28 include: - keeping a pigsty in front of your house; - slaughtering cattle in the street;
o It is illegal to drive cows down the roadway without the permission of the Commissioner of Police. Yes The Metropolitan Streets Act 1867 made it an offence to drive cattle through the streets between 10am and 7pm, except with the permission of the Commissioner of Police.
o It is illegal to handle salmon in suspicious circumstances. Yes This is an offence under the Salmon Act 1986.
These are just a few common examples of "law" to which you have no defence even if the law is an ass. I hate to think about what else could be brought as a prosecution case with respect to vehicles, insurance, modifications, .....
The game is not worth playing IMHO.
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I’m not sure what the point in that post is, the OP ask if he could and the answer is he can, the problem with this forum currently especially when it comes to LED lights is a particular person liked to go around telling everyone it was illegal and seemingly everyone has jumped on that and now if anyone mentions LEDs there is a cacophony of people shouting it’s illegal... it’s not in every instance and people are grown up and able to make their own decision. Now you’re talking about the complexities of car insurance but again that’s between the Op and his insurance company, it really doesn’t matter to anyone one else and just spoils the forum for people who just want an answer to a simple question, people don’t come back if all that happens is their post turns into a back and forth like this.
Well I 100% agree with your post Andy. I was probably being a little too cautious/concerned for all concerned and hoping people do undertake all the correct technical and other investigations.
I was going to go back and strip the post down but missed the edit window (which I think is too short).
Anyway I did address the OPs original technical question.
No offence was meant and not directed at you Holser.
I know that if the DRL or headlamp bulbs fail then the system will complain.
I've not tried to deliberately disable/remove the connection to the fog/turning lights.
If you have not already tried this then this is where I would start. Does the body computer detect a absent fog/cornering light? Do some drive cycles to be certain. Also enable and disable the cornering lights option in the system menus. Basically give the body computer some situations/condition to evaluate.
If it does not complain then I suspect any make of LED bulb replacement will be OK. The reported after glow will be now down to your opinion/acceptance (cosmetic or otherwise)
Having made this change then I would be wary of any continued battery drain.
I've not tried to deliberately disable/remove the connection to the fog/turning lights.
If you have not already tried this then this is where I would start. Does the body computer detect a absent fog/cornering light? Do some drive cycles to be certain. Also enable and disable the cornering lights option in the system menus. Basically give the body computer some situations/condition to evaluate.
If it does not complain then I suspect any make of LED bulb replacement will be OK. The reported after glow will be now down to your opinion/acceptance (cosmetic or otherwise)
Having made this change then I would be wary of any continued battery drain.
I've purchased some led canbus friendly bulbs from ABD so when they arrive I'll find the time to fit them. I don't tend to use front fog lights anyway but this is only for cosmetic reasons to match the led drl's while cornering . Thanks for your response.
