That must be for the Diesel Engine.
The MultiAir system is very fussy about oil used. Only in theory *ONLY* SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 oil.
General 500X - engine oil
- Thread starter Organ Morgan
- Start date
Currently reading:
General 500X - engine oil
That must be for the Diesel Engine.
The MultiAir system is very fussy about oil used. Only in theory *ONLY* SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 oil.
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2016
- Messages
- 19
- Points
- 6
It was 1.4l multiair petrol. It went just fine but I only ran it between official service. No issues with multiair thus far.
FiatFleetFamily
Established member
Another one for diesel Euro 6 that meets FIAT 9.55535-GS1 spec is an independent oil producer in UK called Westway Lubricants. Product is 0W30 C2 FULLY SYNTHETIC.
The difference between ACEA C2 and C3 is the HTHS "High Temperature, High Shear" viscosity performance.. or roughly how the oil viscosity hold up with temperature and pressure.
C2 oils have an minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.9 mPascals... while C3 oils have a minimum of 3.5 mPascals. A higher HTHS value means the oil is more resistant to shearing.
If an engine "requires" C2, all that means is that the oil needs to exceed that 2.9mPa threshold... which a C3 oil does.
Newer engine designs are given thinner oil (0W20 is all the rage now) but are expected to run it for 18,000 miles or similar... so C3 was devised. C3 would work in a C2 engine... (which I suppose is where Castrol's "C2/C3" labelling comes from) .. whereas C2 would not be so good for a C3 engine.
Ralf S.
C2 oils have an minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.9 mPascals... while C3 oils have a minimum of 3.5 mPascals. A higher HTHS value means the oil is more resistant to shearing.
If an engine "requires" C2, all that means is that the oil needs to exceed that 2.9mPa threshold... which a C3 oil does.
Newer engine designs are given thinner oil (0W20 is all the rage now) but are expected to run it for 18,000 miles or similar... so C3 was devised. C3 would work in a C2 engine... (which I suppose is where Castrol's "C2/C3" labelling comes from) .. whereas C2 would not be so good for a C3 engine.
Ralf S.
Ralf you are pretty much on the mark with this but this is also interesting and very specific specific and interesting specification situation. Were my dad still alive (50 years+ off working for Shell and Esso/Exxon in the oil/additive/formulation/.... business) I would be inviting him round for breakfast, lunch, dinner, ....
What we humble bods don't know is how C2 vs C3 sheer performance may or may not affect the intricacies of the 'delicate' multiair engines. Fiat have specified C2 both past and currently (I think in 2020+ models).
Now either Fiat are being remiss on specifying C2/C3 or pure C3 but it is they who decide and warrant any specification.
Last time i went round this loop with Shell and Esso and Petronas (Fiat Lubrificanti) I basically got the same answer. Fiat no longer give specific Approvals to oil companies like they did in the old days. Pertonas/Lubrificanti being Fiat/major partners have the Fiat nnnnn specification approvals. Other manufacturers can not specifically quote these Fiat nnnnn approvals. All they can say is that they meet or exceed these specs.
I did look a long while ago at C2, C3 and C2/C3 oils in more specific overall tech specs and I recall a characteristic of C2 that is not present in C3. That got me thinking as to why some manufactures quotes C2/C3 and some just C2 or C3. I could never get a clear definitive answers. That said when I spoke to Castrol and others some said Fiat say C2 and declined to recommend their C2/C3 or C3 products.
This begs the question as to who is covering their own back sides in what should be a simple situation. I think the answer lies (or did lay) in the specific requirement of the multiair valve chain/drive technology putting unique and challenging demands on the engine oil not as a basic engine lubricant but also as a "fluid" that could meet the demands on the multiair hydraulic rapid pumping etc. requirements.
We know that early twinair engines had issues and Fiat changed the oil specifications to overcome these.
I'm not sure where this all leads other than to say stick to what Fiat say/recommend when in warranty (I know many fiat garages do not and they just pump their bulk stuff in but they just get no quibble Fiat swarranty support). Out of warranty use your best judgement whilst staying as close to the requirements as possible.
My list of oils I will use with confidence in my 500X 1.4 2015 MultiAir are:
Selenia Digitek Pure Energy
PETRONAS Syntium 7000E 0W-30
CASTROL EDGE PROFESSIONAL H C2 0W-30 - Note! This is only available via a Honda garages. When I asked Castrol about their other readily available oils off the shelf possible oils they said they would only recommend Edge Professional!
With regards to Shell then they say Helix Ultra ECT C2/C3 0W-30 but when using my dad's old contacts with Shell they say:
"Fiat no longer issues approval letters hence we can only claim that the Helix Ultra ECT C2/C3 0W-30 meets the Fiat 9.55535-GS1 specification."
So in a nutshell this subject is as murky as it can get and I guess we have to with exact recommended or our best personal judgement when out of warranty.
Attachments
Aussie probably needs a one-step on the 0 and also on the W30.. UK is cooler, I suppose.
My old beast being a 1.0ltr needs "Petronas Selenia Eco2 0W-20 ACEA C5 9.55535-DM1 or equivalent"... which seems to mean "Petronas Selenia Eco2 0W-20 ACEA C5 9.55535-DM1" since I can hardly find that, never mind an equivalent...
Ralf S.
https://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.phpAussie probably needs a one-step on the 0 and also on the W30.. UK is cooler, I suppose.
My old beast being a 1.0ltr needs "Petronas Selenia Eco2 0W-20 ACEA C5 9.55535-DM1 or equivalent"... which seems to mean "Petronas Selenia Eco2 0W-20 ACEA C5 9.55535-DM1" since I can hardly find that, never mind an equivalent...
Ralf S.
Then: "C1 and C2 oils have lower HTHS viscosities, while C3 and C4 oils have higher HTHS viscosities. The C5 category that has been newly introduced in the ACEA 2016 sequences has even lower limit for HTHS viscosity."
So unlike 0W-40 viscosity ranges where viscosity follows the numbers (lower to higher) the HTHS viscosity is just a part of all the other parameters/qualities covered in the ACEA standards.
So now we have:
C2 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s
C3 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s
C5 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s
So how can the likes of Shell oil be a C2/C3? It can't be both as 3.5 > 2.9 and Fiat spec C2. And now C5 2.6 < 2.6.
https://360.lubrizol.com/2019/Why HTHS Viscosity Matters
I think Shell's combination "C2/C3" must refer to the oil's "SAPS" (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous and Sulphur) rating.
C2 and C3 are both "mid-SAPS" (0.8% ash) .. so Shell is obviously focusing on SAPS rather than HTHS. SAPS needs to be lower when a vehicle has more DPF and pollution control filters and systems (e.g. AdBlu, etc.) , since sulphur makes a stink and ash blocks DPFs.
Anyhow, in theory, if the SAPS is the same, then any engine that needs C2 will not complain about C3, since a C3 oil meets the requirement of C2 "engines", in that it has an HTHS above the minimum of 2.9mPa*s. I suppose it might depend on what else the C2 oil has in it, that the engine needs, which a C3 oil may not have....
It looks like the league table of oil spec's looks like:
C5 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s (mid-SAPS)
C1 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s (low-SAPS)
C2 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s (mid-SAPS)
C3 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s (mid-SAPS)
C4 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s (low-SAPS)
I'd hazard a guess that the C5 oil is just low HTHS/viscosity so that manufacturers can meet emissions and fuel economy specifications.. and in real life, a 0W20 oil is going to work in any engine that needs a 0W20 oil, regardless of the oil's ACEA ratings.
Having said that... I haven't checked but I think all 0W20 oils will be C5 by default, so in any case if you have the one, you will get the other... but I dunno. I'll find out as/when I start doing my own oil changes and research.
I still think (though I won't try it on my brand new engine just yet..
) that "any" 0W20, as long as it is changed annually or 9000 miles say, will be fine, because ultimately it's just moving metal parts that need "lubrication".. which a clean, good condition 0W20 oil will provide.. even if the ash, HTHS etc. isn't precisely "as certified". Something to look forward to finding out..
Ralf S.
C2 and C3 are both "mid-SAPS" (0.8% ash) .. so Shell is obviously focusing on SAPS rather than HTHS. SAPS needs to be lower when a vehicle has more DPF and pollution control filters and systems (e.g. AdBlu, etc.) , since sulphur makes a stink and ash blocks DPFs.
Anyhow, in theory, if the SAPS is the same, then any engine that needs C2 will not complain about C3, since a C3 oil meets the requirement of C2 "engines", in that it has an HTHS above the minimum of 2.9mPa*s. I suppose it might depend on what else the C2 oil has in it, that the engine needs, which a C3 oil may not have....
It looks like the league table of oil spec's looks like:
C5 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s (mid-SAPS)
C1 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s (low-SAPS)
C2 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s (mid-SAPS)
C3 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s (mid-SAPS)
C4 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s (low-SAPS)
I'd hazard a guess that the C5 oil is just low HTHS/viscosity so that manufacturers can meet emissions and fuel economy specifications.. and in real life, a 0W20 oil is going to work in any engine that needs a 0W20 oil, regardless of the oil's ACEA ratings.
Having said that... I haven't checked but I think all 0W20 oils will be C5 by default, so in any case if you have the one, you will get the other... but I dunno. I'll find out as/when I start doing my own oil changes and research.
I still think (though I won't try it on my brand new engine just yet..
) that "any" 0W20, as long as it is changed annually or 9000 miles say, will be fine, because ultimately it's just moving metal parts that need "lubrication".. which a clean, good condition 0W20 oil will provide.. even if the ash, HTHS etc. isn't precisely "as certified". Something to look forward to finding out..Ralf S.
All makes sense to a degree. I've mixed oils with no big bangs yet in conventional engine but I get a little nervous with the TwinAir/MultiAir engines as when then TwinAir first came out there were many (well more than expected) valve unit failures and Fiat made several oil changes ending up with a low C2 HTHS value.I think Shell's combination "C2/C3" must refer to the oil's "SAPS" (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous and Sulphur) rating.
C2 and C3 are both "mid-SAPS" (0.8% ash) .. so Shell is obviously focusing on SAPS rather than HTHS. SAPS needs to be lower when a vehicle has more DPF and pollution control filters and systems (e.g. AdBlu, etc.) , since sulphur makes a stink and ash blocks DPFs.
Anyhow, in theory, if the SAPS is the same, then any engine that needs C2 will not complain about C3, since a C3 oil meets the requirement of C2 "engines", in that it has an HTHS above the minimum of 2.9mPa*s. I suppose it might depend on what else the C2 oil has in it, that the engine needs, which a C3 oil may not have....
It looks like the league table of oil spec's looks like:
C5 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s (mid-SAPS)
C1 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s (low-SAPS)
C2 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s (mid-SAPS)
C3 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s (mid-SAPS)
C4 = minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s (low-SAPS)
I'd hazard a guess that the C5 oil is just low HTHS/viscosity so that manufacturers can meet emissions and fuel economy specifications.. and in real life, a 0W20 oil is going to work in any engine that needs a 0W20 oil, regardless of the oil's ACEA ratings.
Having said that... I haven't checked but I think all 0W20 oils will be C5 by default, so in any case if you have the one, you will get the other... but I dunno. I'll find out as/when I start doing my own oil changes and research.
I still think (though I won't try it on my brand new engine just yet..
Ralf S.
I'm not sure what your engine needs (do you have the manual)? But 0W30 sounds a bit "recent" (more recommended for the latest 1.6 which used Adblu).
If you're not sure, I'd go with 5W30, or even 5W40 if the weather stays mild.
Ralf S.
If you're not sure, I'd go with 5W30, or even 5W40 if the weather stays mild.
Ralf S.
The Manual says Selenia SAE 0W30 Acea c2 9.55535-DS1 for diesel engines. I'm using exactly the same oil. Halfords says that 5W30 is not suitable for your engine when I enter the car's plate number. They recommend 3 brands all of them 0W30, The reason I asked here is that I'm confused when people say 5W30?!?!?!
With my twinair.. as no Selenia was available..
I found only Opie oils had an online configurator that made sense.
( it recommended a Millers product..which I sourced online)
Have a look and tell us what you find
I found only Opie oils had an online configurator that made sense.
( it recommended a Millers product..which I sourced online)
Have a look and tell us what you find
I always order selenia from here. No problems at all:With my twinair.. as no Selenia was available..
I found only Opie oils had an online configurator that made sense.
( it recommended a Millers product..which I sourced online)
Have a look and tell us what you find
Fiat 500X 2.0 MultiJet (140hp) Engine Oils (Selenia)
www.shop4parts.co.uk
There was no UK stock for my requirements..
Ive used FIAT -alfa network for years.. but all local agents have now finished and S4P couldnt supply so I bought 'Castrol' recommended by ECP.. not good
Hence my mornings research ending up at Opie's site
Ive used FIAT -alfa network for years.. but all local agents have now finished and S4P couldnt supply so I bought 'Castrol' recommended by ECP.. not good
Hence my mornings research ending up at Opie's site
Sorry to bump an old thread, but just received service parts from Alfa shop for the 1.4 multiair, and they sent me Petronas Syntium 7000, did we get anywhere on the conclusion if its the same as the digitek, I'm sure they wouldn't sell it if it wasn't but thought I'd ask, my paranoia is setting in, Thanks
Petronas now may the Selina brand of oils, so this is the oil that fiat now recommends, if in any doubt look at the side of the can and it will tell you all the standards it complies with on their. Over times the standards can change so something could be a higher standard that a previous standard and so that specific designation will change on the newer oil. Basically if that's what they sent you, it's probably fine to use.
I use Petronas Syntium 7000E - 0W30 ACEA C2 API SN - Fully Synthetic
As far as I'm concerned it is the same as Digitek but does not carry the Fiat Approval Number.
Other inquiries by me suggest that Fiat no longer issue Fiat type approval ratings to the likes of Shell, Esso, Texaco, etc.
The key point is the ACEA API ratings
Fiat Specify: Digtek - 0W30 ACEA C2 API SN - Fully Synthetic
Petronas: Syntium - 0W30 ACEA C2 API SN - Fully Synthetic
Also Petronas make the Selina Digitex oil branded for Fiat.
As far as I'm concerned it is the same as Digitek but does not carry the Fiat Approval Number.
Other inquiries by me suggest that Fiat no longer issue Fiat type approval ratings to the likes of Shell, Esso, Texaco, etc.
The key point is the ACEA API ratings
Fiat Specify: Digtek - 0W30 ACEA C2 API SN - Fully Synthetic
Petronas: Syntium - 0W30 ACEA C2 API SN - Fully Synthetic
Also Petronas make the Selina Digitex oil branded for Fiat.
I'm thinking the 1.0ltr Firefly is going to be a spectacular PITA for engine oil in the future.
It uses Selenia ECO2 which is SAE 0W20 ACEA C5 and meets Fiat's FCA 955535-DM1 standard... but if you go shopping for 0W20 there is bugger all options.
Shop4parts want £24 per litre, although other sellers ask for about £14 delivered... and there is a mythical 4ltr tin can made, that some sellers show but nobody has in stock.
Other manufacturer 0W20 options come from;
The oil after the first service looked different to the oil the factory filled it with... but so far no issues, at my mileage (barely 17,000)... but who knows what's in store in the future, or if obsessing about oil so much is actually necessary, as long as it's just roughly the correct grade..
Ralf S,
It uses Selenia ECO2 which is SAE 0W20 ACEA C5 and meets Fiat's FCA 955535-DM1 standard... but if you go shopping for 0W20 there is bugger all options.
Shop4parts want £24 per litre, although other sellers ask for about £14 delivered... and there is a mythical 4ltr tin can made, that some sellers show but nobody has in stock.
Other manufacturer 0W20 options come from;
- Mannol - Legend Formula C5 which carries a Chrysler but no Fiat standard
- Castrol - Edge Hyspec C5 which carries two Fiat standards but not the FCA 955535-DM1
- Mobil 1 - ESP C5 which carries no Fiat or related brands' standard
- Petronas - Syntium 7000 which carries no Fiat or related brands' standard
- Liqui Moly - Special Tec which carries no Fiat or related brands' standard
- Smith & Allen - Momentum C5 which carries no Fiat or related brands' standard
The oil after the first service looked different to the oil the factory filled it with... but so far no issues, at my mileage (barely 17,000)... but who knows what's in store in the future, or if obsessing about oil so much is actually necessary, as long as it's just roughly the correct grade..
Ralf S,
