Register Login
FIAT Auto Specialist Team
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-08-2017   #1
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Vienna
Posts: 136
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Austria 
Diesel discussion

Hi there,

since currently there is a hefty discussion in Germany about diesel engines - I'd like to know whether there is a similar discussion in the UK too ?

In Germany the discussion is mainly about German manufaturers (VW, Audi, Porsche), because it was uncovered that these companies betrayed massively in the approval tests. But there have been also tests indicating that Fiat seems to be affected as well; in one test a Doblo with the 1.6 l Multijet engine came up with the worst NOx results of all cars in the test. So it is not unlikely that also the 500L is affected, since it probably has the same engine.
There might be the danger that such cars are prohibited from entering inner cities in the near future, at least in Germany

Any thoughts ?

Brandy
__________________
2014 Fiat 500L Lounge Multijet 120 bhp, bicolore bianco/nero
2000 Fiat barchetta, nero seta

Last edited by Ez2517; 03-08-2017 at 13:35.
Ez2517 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 03-08-2017   #2
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 567
Thanks: 7
Trader Rating: 0
JCarp16 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Diesel discussion

Quote Originally Posted by Ez2517 View Post
Hi there,

since currently there is a hefty discussion in Germany about diesel engines - I'd like to know whether there is a similar discussion in the UK too ?

In Germany the discussion is mainly about German manufaturers (VW, Audi, Porsche), because it was uncovered that these companies betrayed massively in the approval tests. But there have been also tests indicating that Fiat seems to be affected as well; in one test a Doblo with the 1.6 l Multijet engine came up with the worst NOx results of all cars in the test. So it is not unlikely that also the 500L is affected, since it probably has the same engine.
There might be the danger that such cars are prohibited from entering inner cities in the near future, at least in Germany

Any thoughts ?

Brandy
I understand that there are changes afoot. In the US the investigation into FCA diesels suggested that the software providers, Bosch were at fault and FCA has now been given permission to start selling cars with the 3.0 V6 eco diesel again after updates were approved. I'm not sure if the same situation exists with the smaller diesels though.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

JCarp16 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 03-08-2017   #3
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Vienna
Posts: 136
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Austria 
Re: Diesel discussion

Hi,

I think the investigation into FCA in the US only concerns Chrysler cars, I dont think they sell Fiat Diesels in the US. The only engine for the 500L and X is a 160 bhp petrol engine, the 500 has a 100 bhp petrol engine.

Brandy
__________________
2014 Fiat 500L Lounge Multijet 120 bhp, bicolore bianco/nero
2000 Fiat barchetta, nero seta
Ez2517 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 03-08-2017   #4
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 567
Thanks: 7
Trader Rating: 0
JCarp16 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Diesel discussion

It was the VM diesel. It is used in other brands not just Chrysler. It's not a Chrysler engine. The reason I suggested a link is that both engines are Italian and maybe the software and ECU are from the same supplier.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

JCarp16 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 04-08-2017   #5
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,652
Thanks: 207
Trader Rating: 0
Goudrons has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Diesel discussion

Quote Originally Posted by Ez2517 View Post
There might be the danger that such cars are prohibited from entering inner cities in the near future, at least in Germany

Any thoughts ?

Brandy
Not just in Germany.
London is starting an Ultra Low Emission Zone quite soon, 2020 is planned but they are trying to push it through a lot sooner, late 2018 or early 2019 looks likely.

They have the infustruture in place already from the congestion charge and the ULEZ area, for now will be the same but there is a plan to extend the ULEZ (within the north/South circulars) and no doubt the CC will also expand at the same time (they never miss a neat trick)

It means vehicles will be charged again as it's on top of the CC, if they enter the area and do not meet certain emission regulations.
Unlike the CC, the ULEZ with run 24/7.

With diesel cars, vans and minibuses the ULEZ standard is Euro 6.
Euro VI for lorries, buses and coaches. (don't know what the difference is between 6 and VI?)
Pertol cars Euro 4.
Motorcycles Euro 3 (so there goes my 2 stroke).

The charges vary depending on the classes above, as will the none compliance fines, but it looks like fixed penalties of up to 1000 are planned for HGVs and around 130 for cars.

I doesn't take a genius to work out these standards with creep up over time, most likely when they realise the NOx isn't falling or falling quick enough (due to other NOx sources that they won't admit to!)

They are even introducing rules for Black Cabs, Mini Cabs are already controlled.
All new Black Cabs will have to be capable of running on zero emissions from Jan 2018, it appears some sort of electric motor with a petrol range extender is in production for them, like the BMW i3.

Will this spread across the country? Probably.
It seems clear at present that central govenment don't want to be seen as the baddies on this and are pushing the immediate pollution control issue back to local govenments and because of this, they are having to consider similar schemes.
Once they realise there's a bob or two in it for themselves, they'll soon follow.
Likes JCarp16, Ez2517 liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Goudrons is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 04-08-2017   #6
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Vienna
Posts: 136
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Austria 
Re: Diesel discussion

Hi,

thanks a lot for the comprehensive information :-)

Is there also a discussion in the UK about the topic that manufacturers cheated on the emissions tests ? Here they are discussing to prohibit cars from entering inner cities which have Euro6 approval but have been proven to have cheated during the tests by recognizing the test cycle / deactivating the purification system on the road ....

Brandy
Likes JCarp16 liked this post
__________________
2014 Fiat 500L Lounge Multijet 120 bhp, bicolore bianco/nero
2000 Fiat barchetta, nero seta
Ez2517 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 04-08-2017   #7
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 567
Thanks: 7
Trader Rating: 0
JCarp16 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Diesel discussion

Yes. There's a lot of discussion - especially as German diesels are very popular in the UK. Articles such as this one are commonplace https://www.theguardian.com/environm...luting-diesels
Thanks Ez2517 thanked for this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

JCarp16 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 04-08-2017   #8
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Vienna
Posts: 136
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Austria 
Re: Diesel discussion

I think it is a pity that the responsibility for the emissions tests and the type approvals lies in the hands of the member states. Unlike Germany, Italy does't seem to care at all, so it seems unlikely that Italian carmakers will be forced to offer improvements (software or hardware upgrades) for cars which are already on the road. So maybe I should sell my Multijet as long as I still get some money for it ...
__________________
2014 Fiat 500L Lounge Multijet 120 bhp, bicolore bianco/nero
2000 Fiat barchetta, nero seta
Ez2517 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 04-08-2017   #9
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 567
Thanks: 7
Trader Rating: 0
JCarp16 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Diesel discussion

Quote Originally Posted by Ez2517 View Post
I think it is a pity that the responsibility for the emissions tests and the type approvals lies in the hands of the member states. Unlike Germany, Italy does't seem to care at all, so it seems unlikely that Italian carmakers will be forced to offer improvements (software or hardware upgrades) for cars which are already on the road. So maybe I should sell my Multijet as long as I still get some money for it ...
I think they will have to make changes if everyone else is. Otherwise we may have the situation whereby certain models will be banned from cities which would be ridiculous. I know that long term most manufacturers are looking to move away from diesel in favour of petrol hybrids and electric but until then they will have to play by the same rules if they're enforced.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

JCarp16 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 04-08-2017   #10
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Ashington, Northumberland
Posts: 294
Thanks: 25
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Diesel discussion

The sale of new diesels have fallen. If you look at the motoring trade - secondhand car dealers - they're finding it difficult to get rid of diesels of all makes.

It seems as though diesels are becoming 'socially unacceptable' which is probably a good enough reason for the government to start hiking diesel fuel duty and hit motorists with extra charges all round.

I've attached an image of a Fiat mechanic who works for peanuts.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	monkey.png
Views:	15
Size:	292.9 KB
ID:	183011  
Likes Ez2517, 1.8Stilo liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

glenn2602 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 07-08-2017   #11
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Vienna
Posts: 136
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Austria 
Re: Diesel discussion

Quote Originally Posted by JCarp16 View Post
I think they will have to make changes if everyone else is. Otherwise we may have the situation whereby certain models will be banned from cities which would be ridiculous. I know that long term most manufacturers are looking to move away from diesel in favour of petrol hybrids and electric but until then they will have to play by the same rules if they're enforced.
I would agree if the bans would be made in enough countries to bother the manufacturers. But if lets say only Germany imposes such a ban first, I would guess that manufacturers who have sold only a couple of hundred cars there might not react, or wait until more countries join in.
__________________
2014 Fiat 500L Lounge Multijet 120 bhp, bicolore bianco/nero
2000 Fiat barchetta, nero seta
Ez2517 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 11-08-2017   #12
Ulpian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: My flat mostly
Posts: 3,578
Thanks: 132
Trader Rating: 0
Ulpian has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Diesel discussion

I'll bet that all manufacturers are working like crazy on hybrid and pure electric cars, but Mazda's forthcoming compression ignition petrol engine will be astonishingly economical too. But horribly complicated.

I'm hanging on for a quick-charging, long range, affordable small car.

I got rid of my diesel two years ago, partly because I saw this coming and partly because my driving habits changed. I think for many people hanging on to diesel cars and saving for a replacement, whatever it might be, will be the best option. Certainly all cities are going to control diesel cars eventually and I think buying a new one now would be madness.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by Ulpian; 11-08-2017 at 07:31.
Ulpian is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 11-08-2017   #13
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Vienna
Posts: 136
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
Austria 
Re: Diesel discussion

I agree, although I think it is an overreaction, because some diesel cars have proven that it is possible to behave quite clean, if manufacturers install the latest purification systems, and do not save on AdBlue consumption.
I will most probably keep my 500L diesel for some more years, selling it now would be too much of a financial loss. In Germany, they recently did a test, and contacted 5 dealerships for trading in a 5 year old VW Diesel that should have been worth 18k EUR at the time. They got one offer for 12k, 3 dealers refused to trade it in at all. Maybe I'll purchase an used petrol Smart for inner city driving and short trips.
__________________
2014 Fiat 500L Lounge Multijet 120 bhp, bicolore bianco/nero
2000 Fiat barchetta, nero seta
Ez2517 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(T) Discussion - transmisson fluids Nottingham22 Punto (Mk2/2b) 10 31-12-2014 10:46
(T) Discussion Thread: D4 Connector T14086 Stilo 34 25-03-2014 13:19
Interesting discussion! Ben R Leisure Lounge 51 27-08-2005 09:58