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Old 14-09-2014   #16
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Retro engineering safer structures to pass this test is sometimes possible. I think Mazda (might be another Japanese maker) did it recently when one of their new models performed badly. Mostly it needed a revised cross member behind the radiator.
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Last edited by Ulpian; 14-09-2014 at 20:10.
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Old 14-09-2014   #17
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Quote Originally Posted by Ulpian View Post
Retro engineering safer structures to pass this test is sometimes possible. I think Mazda (might be another Japanese maker) did it recently when one of their new models performed badly. Mostly it needed a revised cross member behind the radiator.
If it was the latest 3 they modified the front suspension arms to achieve a good rating.
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Old 14-09-2014   #18
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Quote Originally Posted by Ulpian View Post
I've looked at tests of the cars that have passed, and this is a big fail actually. Fiat will need to re-engineer it.


In a crash, keeping the doors secure is vital to preserving the integrity of the passenger compartment.

Look at the three vids (500, mini & golf) carefully, paying particular attention to the passenger door.

In the 500 crash, the lock gives way almost immediately, so the door flies open and can't absorb any of the shock loads. The passenger door on the other two cars stays secure and the door is taking a good deal of the damage, protecting the passenger compartment.

IMO redesigning the door latching/locking mechanism might enable the 500 to do much better.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 14-09-2014 at 21:10.
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Old 14-09-2014   #19
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
This is the iihs website which explains everything you need to know about the test it's self
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/rat...al-crash-tests

It's to simulate hitting an immovable object or a very small overlap in a head on collision with another vehicle

40% of Single vehicle crashes are subject to a small overlap according to a study by an American medical university, leading to a much higher percentage of head neck chest spine and pelvic injuries (those most likely to be life changing injuries) and 25% of deaths from frontal collisions involve a small overlap and when you take into account that there are 380,000 deaths on the road in the us each year (nearly 100 a day) that makes this test very relevant indeed

Also the iihs doesn't diminish what NCAP do they build upon it, saying cars are safer because of what NCap have done but there is still space for improvement.

Of the cars tests very only a hand full have performed well and several have achieved acceptable ratings, but many like the 500L have earned a poor rating

Essentially it's another tool to encourage manufactures to improve designs

Also iihs isn't an independent body like NCap so these test are important to the insurance industry which funds them to help evaluate car safety and calculate premiums accordingly
Thanks for that..interesting.

However 40% of SINGLE vehicle crashes involve a small overlap. So what has this to do with collisions with other vehicles?

They are not being honest with the stats. Because they suggest it as a significant percentage of the 380,000 which it is clearly not.
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Last edited by MJG; 14-09-2014 at 21:24.
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Old 14-09-2014   #20
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Quote Originally Posted by MJG View Post
Thanks for that..interesting.

However 40% of SINGLE vehicle crashes involve a small overlap. So what has this to do with collisions with other vehicles?

They are not being honest with the stats. Because they suggest it as a significant percentage of the 380,000 which it is clearly not.
So crashes involving a single vehicle 40% of the time involve a small overlap collision with an object, tree lap post etc the other 60% are most likely minor bumps or major head ons with something big and immoveable

in addition 25% of head on collisions involving another vehicle are subject to a small overlap type impact

the test its self is supposed to replicate "what happens when the front corner of a vehicle collides with another vehicle or an object like a tree or utility pole."

from scouting around in 2012 data shows 18,000 people were killed in the USA when their vehicle left the road (no other vehicle directly involved) the data show 65% of all road deaths were people in passenger vehicles (11,700) and of theses 40% sustained and accident involving a small overlap (4,680)

so just this suggest that 4,680 people died in 2012 when their car left the road and hit something so that alone is 14% of the total road deaths in the USA in 2012

applying the maths to those killed at collisions between cars at junctions another 1,500 are killed in accidents with a small overlap i can't find specific data for cars that have collided while traveling towards each other but clearly there is a need for this type of test and they wouldn't spend millions developing and creating a test that they didn't feel was accurate or necessary
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Old 14-09-2014   #21
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Re: 500L crash test safety

The 500L is also running on an old chassis designed in the early 2000's with GM this probably doesn't help with the stiffness of the car - clearly the result of this test is not good.
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Old 15-09-2014   #22
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post


the test its self is supposed to replicate "what happens when the front corner of a vehicle collides with another vehicle or an object like a tree or utility pole."
And that to me is not possible, for the reasons I have already said.

Trees and bridge supports can be pretty immovable but other vehicles will to a degree 'give' in an impact.

Whilst the test highlights a significant issue in the design of the 500L I think the risks posed are overplayed given the number of accidents that involve the situation that the 'small overlap' test accurately replicates, rather than a scenario it purports to replicate.
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Old 15-09-2014   #23
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Re: 500L crash test safety

If other makers can engineer their cars to pass then so can Fiat, and they must if they are serious about selling cars in America. This is a genuine safety concern after all.
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Old 15-09-2014   #24
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Quote Originally Posted by Ulpian View Post
If other makers can engineer their cars to pass then so can Fiat, and they must if they are serious about selling cars in America. This is a genuine safety concern after all.
Of course they need to sort it as I would imagine a lot will be made of this by the American motoring and buying public. It could even influence sales in other markets where people are aware of it.

As to it being a genuine safety concern, well given the reasons I have given regarding the validity of the test and it's application to actual collision scenarios I remain unconvinced TBH, and it wouldn't deter me from buying another L to replace mine nor will I be getting rid of mine any time soon on the basis of theses results.

I can however fully understand why some would be alarmed by them and consider it a serious concern.
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Old 15-09-2014   #25
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Is there a lorry driving into the back of you test? all the test i see are for us hitting some thing are there tests for stuff hitting us?
where is the people chucking bricks off a motoway bridge test.
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Old 15-09-2014   #26
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Quote Originally Posted by dave View Post
Is there a lorry driving into the back of you test? all the test i see are for us hitting some thing are there tests for stuff hitting us?
where is the people chucking bricks off a motoway bridge test.
I don't think it would be possible though to test for every possible scenario would it?
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Old 15-09-2014   #27
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500L crash test safety

Quote Originally Posted by MJG View Post



As to it being a genuine safety concern, well given the reasons I have given regarding the validity of the test and it's application to actual collision scenarios I remain unconvinced TBH,

As pointed out a huge amount of time and money had been spent developing this test by experts in the industry. And although no one test is going to accurately test for every possible scenario this has obviously been deemed to be the most accurate method to do so.

Yes in a collision with a pole or tree it's unlikely the object will 'give' and in the test the crash barrier does not give and all the crash force comes from the single vehicle.

When you hit another vehicle then the crash forces are increased greatly and yes another vehicle will 'give' but it also has it's own crash force to dissipate. So two cars hitting head on both travelling at 40mph is no different to a single car hitting an immovable object at 40mph and for that reason the test is very much valid.

And although it might not affect your choice of car now, it will probably become more widely adopted on all cars in the future, and like NCap did 20 years ago, top scoring cars used to get 3 stars and small cars would be lucky to get 2 stars, these days any car scoring so badly would perform very badly on the sales front.

Far more knowledgable men than you and I conceived this test so to right it off as unrealistic or inaccurate is nothing more than burying your head in the sand
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Old 15-09-2014   #28
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Re: 500L crash test safety

I don't think anybody is burying their head in the sand, people including me will no doubt take due note of the test and apply the level of consideration to it they feel is appropriate. Fiat of course as I've already said need to sort it though.

Looking at the results on that site quickly there are a few manufacturers who need to do some further work on a couple of their models notably Kia for the Sportage which gets a P too and Honda for the CRV which gets an M. Fiat are certainly not on their own and neither of course is the L within Fiats range as the little 500 gets a P too.
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Old 15-09-2014   #29
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Quote Originally Posted by JimbbobW1977 View Post
The 500L is also running on an old chassis designed in the early 2000's with GM.
Wheres this come from out of interest

My milkfloat is safeish though

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Old 15-09-2014   #30
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Re: 500L crash test safety

Quote Originally Posted by Most Easterly Pandas View Post
Wheres this come from out of interest
I have no idea if it is correct or not but I have read somewhere (possibly on here) that the L's floor pan is derived from the Punto.

No idea if that is correct or not as said, given the L's wheelbase it seems a bit of a stretch (no pun intended)
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