Off Topic The Fatherhood

[Jazzist]

 

[AndyRKett]

I'm not quite sure where the dancing unicorn comes into it however this wasn't as funny as 'the motherhood' video

given that me and my other half are the exact people that fiat are trying to appeal to with this car, I can honestly say although the videos might be entertaining the car looks like some sort of horrible dull brick, with tiny wheels the top half doesnt seem to match the bottom half its all very disjointed.
Many of our friends are buying new german cars, BMW Audi and merc, as well as the mini (which is what we've just done) and for a fiat its comparatively expensive, with a reputation for reliability not dissimilar to most french marquees it will be interesting to see what happen with this car but i can see it going the way of the multipla, nice car but not enough sales/interest

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Prefer the motherhood one myself - more eye candy!

 

[Ulpian]

Yes, not as good as the Motherhood one, and it drags a bit.

The interesting thing was to watch the ad with the toys. As I suspected Fiat hasn't re-engineered the dash, so the footwell on the driver's side looks like it will be cramped. I very much hope not because Fiat can't do with yet another new car without enough pedal space. Let's see though.

I do like the look of the car though, in part because it isn't yet another playing super safe styleless dull as ditchwater German car. Audis, Mercedes, VWs and BMWs are just wheeled Mogadon these days. Mercedes in particular has totally lost the plot, with the new A Class looking like a failed Vauxhall.

 

[AndyRKett]

I do like the look of the car though, in part because it isn't yet another playing super safe styleless dull as ditchwater German car. Audis, Mercedes, VWs and BMWs are just wheeled Mogadon these days. Mercedes in particular has totally lost the plot, with the new A Class looking like a failed Vauxhall.

Although I agree in some respects, that it certainly is different and the Mercedes A class does now look like a 7 year old Astra (?) their are quite a few more interesting looking german cars these days, the new beetle for example very well priced, and competitive with the 500L and of course the scirocco isn't your typical rep mobile,
I may not think that BMWs and Audis are unbelievably interesting but i don't believe they can't be called ugly

the 500L doesn't seem like a new car to me, the back seems very mini inspired and the front carries hints of kangoo van citron obviously fiat 500 and the bulbus bumper sort of harks back to the 206 rally car, and the roof wingmirror combination is obviously mini/DS3 derived
while the fiat 500 is a tribute to the original a small car and is held in the same esteem, this 500L bares no resemblance to its ancestor other than having a strip of chrome nailed to the front, an estate version of the 500 would have been interesting where as this is an exercise in market research, the people this is meant to appeal too want the leather and chrome of the german french and Swedish offerings this doesn't have a leather interior option or trimming and finishing to make it stand out.

there are a lot of direct comparisons for the mini countryman and the 500L and in every picture i've seen the fiat looks a bit dull and lack luster with its small wheels and slab sides, mismatched roof and dare I say dodgy colours, the clubman thought slightly smaller has more presence and pzazz, and really the prices are not that dissimilar and the bmw engine offerings are more powerful and more economic the same can be said for the DS3

I remain to be convinced that this will be very successful certainly not among the 30something yummy mummy and middle class dads who want something to compare to the neighbors 3 series or something with the practicality of a c-max/citroen picasso

Still the adverts are funny so its not all bad

Edit: I think I own that hoodie he's wearing

 

[Jazzist]

Just looked at the Mini Countryman and configured one as close as possible to the 500L that I've ordered. Was still missing half the technology and is £5k more. Only the 1.6 diesel has good economy / emissions and that starts at £19k in poverty spec. The petrol is terrible.

Plus it's a much smaller and less practical car than the 500L, not much good for the target market of the 500L

The Citroën looks like a 10 year old van.

My father in law's supposedly mid range 2009 Focus has drum brakes at the rear. Screw Ford and their penny pinching.

 

[Jazzist]

Re: Re: The Fatherhood

Yes, not as good as the Motherhood one, and it drags a bit.

The interesting thing was to watch the ad with the toys. As I suspected Fiat hasn't re-engineered the dash, so the footwell on the driver's side looks like it will be cramped. I very much hope not because Fiat can't do with yet another new car without enough pedal space. Let's see though.

I do like the look of the car though, in part because it isn't yet another playing super safe styleless dull as ditchwater German car. Audis, Mercedes, VWs and BMWs are just wheeled Mogadon these days. Mercedes in particular has totally lost the plot, with the new A Class looking like a failed Vauxhall.

See what you think of the photos in the RHD thread mate. There is a clear photo of the foot well

 

[AndyRKett]

Just looked at the Mini Countryman and configured one as close as possible to the 500L that I've ordered. Was still missing half the technology and is £5k more.

What technology was missing? having done the same exercise I speced up your Fiat 500L at £20,390 with all the options I can find you've listed.

500L lounge twin air beats audio heated screen fancy paint 17" wheels I even added the comfort options as mini seats are infinitely adjustable (trying to even things up) I also compared the engines of the twin air and the 1.6 mini cooper (the spec I used to compare)

the thing that surprises me about the fiat website is the lack of data, specifications etc however a lease site gave all the information for an engine to engine comparison

so fiat twin air versus mini countryman cooper 1.6 petrol

Power
Fiat 105bhp
Mini 122bhp*

Torque
Fiat 145Nm
Mini 160Nm*

acceleration 0-62 (s)
Fiat 12.8
Mini 10.5*

Top speed
Fiat 112mph
Mini 118mph*

Fuel Economy Combined (mpg)
Fiat 58.9*
Mini 47.1

CO2 emissions g/km
Fiat 112*
Mini 140

VED band and annual Cost
Fiat (C) £30*
Mini (E) £120

unladened weight
Fiat 1260kg
Mini 1265kg (only 5kg in it)

So the mini is more powerful faster etc the fiat is better on economy and cost, but take into account the use of a turbo in the fiat which the countryman cooper doesn't have (just a point of note) and the 1.4 fiat engine doesn't fair so well against the 1.6 mini

so to get all the spec of the £20,390 fiat in a mini it cost me £22,190 on their online Configurator just adding all the options the fiat has as standard and the options you've selected (upgraded stereo package heated screen wheels and fancy paint choice. floor mats, glass sunroof etc) basically matching the mini to the specs of the fiat and the total price difference is £1800

which I don't think is too bad £1800 can be easily lost in the difference between finance packages on the fiat or on the mini and I know mini have a big push on cheap finance at the moment. and I am certain £1800 worth of build quality can be found in the mini above the fiat (although the fiat is very good)

The Mini has a huge number of additional options that just aren't available on the fiat, not big things just lots of little customisation type stuff being new the fiat 500L don't have anywhere near as many options as fiat like to imply, infact the 500 doesn't have anywhere near the options of a countryman

as for the fiat being bigger?

Boot space comparison
minimum
Fiat 343ltrs
mini 350ltrs*

expanded
Fiat 400ltrs
Mini 442ltrs*

with seats down
Fiat 1310ltrs*
Mini 1170Ltrs

so the fiat is only bigger boot space wise with the seats folded down and neither I would say scrimp on rear passenger leg room, obviously the fiat gains somewhere but carrying tots about as per the target market, the higher capacity is needed with the seats up in addition the mini has roof rails if you need to lash down anything sizeable

I'm not criticising your choice of car if a cheap to run family car with a quirky look is what you want then the fiat is the obvious choice out of the two as the Mini is more expensive to buy and run

A more style conscious, keep up with the joneses type person would opt for the mini badge and reputation for build quality better performance and with greater adaptability and customisation yeah so it costs a bit more but they want the joneses to know they can afford more, even if it is only £1800

One thing that can be said for the mini is people are interested in it when I had a Saab people would ask 'how's the saab' the same applied to the Rangerover I owned and again with our mini cooper hatch back people ask 'how is the mini' with all the fiats i've owned no one has ever asked 'how's the fiat'

Plus you can do this in the Mini (if you are completely mental)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u0jd5bDw4o

or this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wgIrt6VtLg

 

[Ulpian]

Andy, you seem concerened with what the neighbours think. This mentality will have you buying what the neighbours aprove of and not necessarily what you might like. You mention not being able to get leather with the 500L. Well, I know I'm not necessarily representative, but I hate leather seats on cars and infinitley prefer a lovely fabric, and I suspect a lot of people feel the same way. But if people must have leather and chrome then the Germans and Koreans are always there for them. The Abarth 500 does leather very well though, as even I will admit The 500L has some very attractive and unusual interior combinations, most of which are far lovlier than black leather with a black dashboard, which is the German norm.

It's still astonishing how emotional we get about cars. People will buy practically the first house they see, fill it with hideous things and think no more about it, but they will fight to the death to defend their choice of car. Interesting that one.

I wonder if Fiat buyers are often a bit different, by which I mean they are not afraid to defend their purchases against the Wimpy Estate brigade who are frightened to death of not fitting in. I remember when I was a kid and my mother bought one of the first Citroen Dyanes to be imported (with a centrifugal clutch - genius), which was a very odd looking car for very good engineering reasons; one man asked contemptuously why it went up at the back, while another asked why it went down at the front. I just smiled politely at the idiots, who had no knowledge or interest in engineering, and walked away.

Interestingly I always get favourable reports from people who travel in Fiats, mainly because they find them surprisingly pleasant places to be, and comfortable too, and they tend to love the high seating position offered by most Fiats, 500L included. Fiats defy expectations.

I reckon the 500L is a very much nicer place to be than any Mini but it will be up to the punters to decide.

 

[Jazzist]

so to get all the spec of the £20,390 fiat in a mini it cost me £22,190 on their online Configurator just adding all the options the fiat has as standard and the options you've selected (upgraded stereo package heated screen wheels and fancy paint choice. floor mats, glass sunroof etc) basically matching the mini to the specs of the fiat and the total price difference is £1800

Nope.

MINI Cooper D Countryman N47 1.6
£19,300.00

NB Not comparing to the petrol as that has absolutely awful economy and emissions.

Metallic Paint
£450

Voice Control
£250

On Board Computer
£105
(standard on the 500L)

Harman Kardon Hi Fi
£740

Visual Boost Radio
£670
(You have to have this if you have one of the other options, voice control I think, you need it to compete with the 500L anyway as the 500L has an Alpine 5" touchscreen radio as standard across the range)

Full Bluetooth with USB
£495
(standard on 500L)

Auto dimming mirrors
£210
(standard on 500L Lounge, had to add I think to get heated windshield)

Elec fold exterior mirrors
£210
(Not on the 500L but some other option forced me to add this)

Heat mirrors/wash jets
Standard
(Nice feature not on the 500L)

Electric Glass Sunroof
£795
(500L has a 1.5 square metre glass roof as standard that can be upgraded to an electric sunroof for £450, had to add this on the mini to get any glass on the roof)

Sun protection glass
£190
(added on my 500L for £150)

Chrome line exterior
£150
(standard on 500L)

Armrest - front
£140
(added on my 500L as part of the comfort pack)

Armrest - rear
£215
(standard on 500L)

Flat load boot floor
£150
(standard on 500L)

Floor mats, velour
£70
(standard on 500L lounge)

Multi-function controls for s'wheel
£210
(standard on 500L)

Rear view mirror, auto dimming £105 (free with auto dimming thingy above)
(standard on 500L lounge)

Storage Compartment Pack
£80
(standard on 500L)

Automatic Air Conditioning
£345
(dual zone climate standard on 500L lounge)

Sport steering wheel
£185
(got to have this for the audio options eg Harmon Karden)

Fog lights, front
£130
(standard on 500L lounge)

Heated front screen
£435
(£350 on 500L)

Auto lights and wipers
£90
(standard on 500L lounge)

£24580 i.e. ~£5k more

What doesn't this Mini get you (some of these may be wrong i.e. included on the Mini..)?

• A really cool car :slayer:, you won't get mistaken for an Estate Agent
• Cargo Magic Space
• Front Seats with Foldable Table & Seat Pocket on the Back
• PTC Heater
• Start and Stop
• £20 Tax
• Specific Side Mouldings with Chrome Inserts
• Fixed Glass Roof
• The Mini is also SMALLER overall
• ecoDrive LIVE
• I suspect a newer ESC system (includes ABS with EBD, ASR/MSR, ERM and DST, Hill Holder, BAS).

:nerner:

I am certain £1800 worth of build quality can be found in the mini above the fiat (although the fiat is very good)

Nope. Pretty sure you're paying for larger margin and for blue collar workers in Oxford to build it instead of Serbia where labour is significantly cheaper.

The Mini has a huge number of additional options that just aren't available on the fiat, not big things just lots of little customisation type stuff being new the fiat 500L don't have anywhere near as many options as fiat like to imply, infact the 500 doesn't have anywhere near the options of a countryman

The options are a rip off, and most of them are standard on the 500L You chastise the 500L for having tiny wheels but to get bigger on the Mini (18") costs £1295.

so the fiat is only bigger boot space wise with the seats folded down and neither I would say scrimp on rear passenger leg room, obviously the fiat gains somewhere but carrying tots about as per the target market, the higher capacity is needed with the seats up in addition the mini has roof rails if you need to lash down anything sizeable

Decent size rear doors help for getting children in and out as well as the bigger load space the 500L has.

I'm not criticising your choice of car if a cheap to run family car with a quirky look is what you want then the fiat is the obvious choice out of the two as the Mini is more expensive to buy and run

Who the heck wants to pay more to buy and run a car simply so Mr Jones and co. are happy ?

A more style conscious, keep up with the joneses type person would opt for the mini badge and reputation for build quality better performance and with greater adaptability and customisation yeah so it costs a bit more but they want the joneses to know they can afford more, even if it is only £1800

:shrug: I'm a style icon mate

One thing that can be said for the mini is people are interested in it when I had a Saab people would ask 'how's the saab' the same applied to the Rangerover I owned and again with our mini cooper hatch back people ask 'how is the mini' with all the fiats i've owned no one has ever asked 'how's the fiat'

:worship:

 

[AndyRKett]

Ok so you want to compare the 1.6 mini diesel to the petrol twin air fiat

Power
Fiat 105bhp
Mini 112bhp*

Torque
Fiat 145Nm
Mini 270Nm*

acceleration 0-62 (s)
Fiat 12.8
Mini 10.9*

Top speed
Fiat 112mph
Mini 115mph*

Fuel Economy Combined (mpg)
Fiat 58.9
Mini 64.2*

CO2 emissions g/km
Fiat 112*
Mini 115

VED band and annual Cost
Fiat (C) £30
Mini (C) £30

so what you've done by comparing the diesel is made the mini a better option for performance and fuel consumption with the emissions pretty much on par.

fiat have been hugely criticised for their fuel economy figures for the twinair range being no where near real world results but even on paper the mini is clearly ahead for MPG

So the break down of the car, well seeing as the diesel option mini its £1300 comparing the costs of petrol for diesel seems a little unfair however knock £1300 off the price of the mini to account for this and it brings your calculation of £24,580 down to £23,280, ad we use my calculation on your car at £20,390 gives us still under £2,900 difference so not quite the £5k you're claiming put the £1300 back on and its still only a smidge over £4k

take your mini countryman cooper D at £19,300
add the 'Chili pack @ £2595 and you get nearly every optional extra you've listed for the 500L and then some
wack on some metalic paint at £450 and a heated front screen which gives you the photochromatic interior mirror
mini connected gives you all the technology and the harmon kardon upgraded speakers and I still only have the total at £24110 ?

and this is what I get

MINI Cooper D Countryman N47 1.6 £ 19,300.00

Exterior
Crystal Silver B12 £ 450.00
Roof in body colour 381 Standard (worth noting different colour roof on the fiat is £350

17" 5-Star Double Spoke Alloys
(Part of CHILI Pack) 2GP £ 0.00
Silver alloy wheels 2P9 £ 0.00

Upholstery
Cloth/Leather Parallel-Light Tobacco
(Part of CHILI Pack) FSGZ £ 0.00

Door Ellipse & Downtubes Dark Silver
(Part of CHILI Pack) 4DB £ 0.00
Packages

CHILI Pack 7Y2 £ 2,595.00
Optional equipment

Dynamic Stability Control 210 Standard

Multi-function controls for s'wheel
(Part of CHILI Pack) 249 £ 0.00

Sport Steering Wheel not available on fiat
(Part of CHILI Pack) 255 £ 0.00

Alarm system (Thatcham 1) 302 Standard not available on fiat

Heated Mirrors/Washer Jets 314 Standard is this? available on fiat maybe mirrors?

Heated Front Screen 359 £ 260.00

Roof rails 386 Standard not available on fiat

Mirror Caps in BodyColour 3AB Standard expensive option on fiat

Bike Rack Preparation 3AR Standard not available on fiat

Floor mats, velour
(Part of CHILI Pack) 423 £ 0.00

Rear-view mirror, auto dimming 431 £ 0.00

Pass. seat height adjustment
(Part of CHILI Pack) 450 £ 0.00

Armrest - front, centre 473 £ 0.00

Sport seats, front not available on fiat
(Part of CHILI Pack) 481 £ 0.00

Storage Compartment Pack
(Part of CHILI Pack) 493 £ 0.00

Colour Line Carbon Black 4C1 £ 0.00
Dashboard Trim Dark Silver
(Part of CHILI Pack) 4C7 £ 0.00

Interior World Carbon Black 4CU £ 0.00

Sport Button not available on fiat
(Part of CHILI Pack) 4UF £ 0.00

Five seat configuration 4UK Standard

Park Distance Control (PDC), rear 507 Standard

Foglights, front
(Part of CHILI Pack) 520 £ 0.00

Rain sensor with auto. headlight activation not available on fiat
(Part of CHILI Pack) 521 £ 0.00

Automatic Air Conditioning
(Part of CHILI Pack) 534 £ 0.00

On-Board Computer
(Part of CHILI Pack) 550 £ 0.00

Extended Interior Light Package Not available on fiat
(Part of CHILI Pack) 563 £ 0.00

Passenger airbag deactivation, front 5DA Standard

Voice Control 620 £ 0.00

DAB digital radio 654 Standard infact DAB is standard on all minis

Harman Kardon - Hi-Fi 674 £ 740.00

Visual Boost Radio 6FP £ 495.00

Full Bluetooth with USB. 6NE £ 60.00

Telephone USB audio interface 6NF £ 0.00

MINI Connected 6NM £ 210.00 not available on fiat

2nd Remote Key 736 Standard

White Indicator Lenses
(Part of CHILI Pack)

Total price £ 24,110.00

the chrome interior and exterior packs on the mini trim things like the fog lights the lower grill the interior air vents door handle surrounds etc non of which is available on the fiat

Oxford versus serbia, I can see your argument for build cost but you've missed the point about build quality

going back to the original calculations I now make the difference (disregarding the premium on the diesel option) of now £2430

What doesn't this Mini get you (some of these may be wrong i.e. included on the Mini..)?
A really cool car the mini is a cool car one of the top sellers in the UK at the end of last year, this is just you're personal opinion
Cargo Magic Space this i am not excited about
Front Seats with Foldable Table & Seat Pocket on the Back I think seat pockets are standard on most cars though i concede i don't think the front seats have folding tables
PTC Heater dunno what this is ?
Start and Stop standard on all minis
£20 Tax the Cooper D is £20 road tax
Specific Side Mouldings with Chrome Inserts, the mini has chrome all over the window seals and round lights so this is not really a big advantage.
Fixed Glass Roof £450 for double sliding roof on the mini
The Mini is also SMALLER overall easier to park? the load area is only bigger with the seats down
ecoDrive LIVE Mini can do this no messing with usb sticks just plug your phone in, you can also tweet and facebook message from your dash as well as having a dedicated ipod App in the computer and a few other tricks
I suspect a newer ESC system (includes ABS with EBD, ASR/MSR, ERM and DST, Hill Holder, BAS). all on the mini

The back doors on the countryman are huge so I don't think customers will be to worried about the fiat's being bigger

I don't think the fiat is a bad car, I do think its an Ugly car and much like the multipla which was a fantastic car but wasn't well received because of its looks
and ultimately died, fiat are not very good at continuing models which don't sell well

 

[Jazzist]

Mini should have better performance its around £5k more expensive :wave:

 

[AndyRKett]

Mini should have better performance its around £5k more expensive :wave:

the the petrol fiat barely has performance even the 1.6 diesel fiat doesn't have the figures of the mini, and you get much more for your money

and as pointed out now twice before it is no where near £5k more thats a figure you keep plucking out of somewhere ?

 

[Jazzist]

the the petrol fiat barely has performance even the 1.6 diesel fiat doesn't have the figures of the mini, and you get much more for your money

and as pointed out now twice before it is no where near £5k more thats a figure you keep plucking out of somewhere ?

:spam:

 

[Murano16v]

The video really sucks, not funny, not clever. So you only buy a 500L because you've got kids, but can't wait for them to grow up and leave. Odd.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so I'm not going to knock the 500L, however it's got sod all connection to the 500 and Fiat should have been confident enough with the car to call it something else. Shame they are also thinking this is the way to go with the Panda "brand". Smacks of desperation. Take the two most popular cars and call everything else by the same name.

 

[Didge3]

the the petrol fiat barely has performance even the 1.6 diesel fiat doesn't have the figures of the mini

Let me first say this, I don't dislike the Mini or the 500L, although personally I wouldn't buy either.

Why do you keep comparing the performance specs of the two, the 500L is clearly marketed as a family car, personally I have never done '0-60' flat out in my car because A) Fuel economy would be awful and B) Traffic doesn't allow for it, besides there as 2 seconds between the cars so hardly worth pointing out, neither are really performance orientated, also I don't think pointing out that the Mini 1.6D has 112hp over the 500L's 105... its not really much of a comparison.

A few other points, of course the Diesel Mini is going to have better MPG than the 500L petrol, and obviously its going to have more Torque.

Personally I don't think comparing these two cars is worth it, they are both family cars based of 'smaller versions' but trying to directly compare an ordinary diesel engine and a 2 cylinder 900cc engine is a bit silly since they are entirely different engines in basically every way.

Price wise, its hard to compare the two with 'max' spec because the specs vary etc. Comparing the base models makes more sense to me. I also personally think Fiat generally make cheap cars, with a Mini I think you are paying a bit for the brand itself.

Just my two pence, I don't dislike either car.

 

[nottsfiat07]

On the supposed mini extra quality... I had a less than three year old mini for a while, having been convinced of the upscale of quality from my original 500. The mini rattled like a box of spanners from doors and dashboard, plus the air con never worked despite being back to the dealer for both things. Nothing ever went wrong in my similar age 500. Plus the leather on the seats was already stretching and rippling. Just saying.

 

[AndyRKett]

Personally I don't think comparing these two cars is worth it, they are both family cars based of 'smaller versions' but trying to directly compare an ordinary diesel engine and a 2 cylinder 900cc engine is a bit silly since they are entirely different engines in basically every way.

A fair point Didge I did point out that it was silly to compare the diesel to a petrol I initially compared the petrol mini to the 500L but for some reason matthew decided to use the diesel for comparison which as you say is silly as then fuel economy power torque etc all best the fiat, the reason to compare the two cars is that because of the looks of the fiat its being constantly compared to the fiat 500L it also falls into the same camp for size market and engines I'm sure you can buy a Chinese MG with all the bells and whistles of both cars for two thirds the cost but he difference in price does reflect the difference in quality

Personally I don't think one is any better than the other I think each has its own benefits, personally my life style budget and preference is on the side of the Mini countryman all4 Cooper D, bright colour dash boards and printed fabric seats is not me. I like full leather heated seats climate control and minimalist interiors I love the mini connect which mimics the iPod and allows you access news feeds which it can read aloud etc etc, I also love the ability to drive to the mini dealership and have a new roof graphic put on or different colour wing mirror caps etc, I don't have kids so the marketing of the 500L puts me off, the mini brand is seen as more aimed at a younger generation with disposable income the 500L is currently rumoured to appeal to families on a budget and older people (think Nissan cube) I don't like its blocky basic exterior but I like the countryman's SUV style appearance.

I looked at fiats citroens, alfas audis and vws before we bought our cooper hatchback and I suspect I will look at a countryman towards the end of the year. But at least I am speaking with some experience of all the current offerings and specs

 

[T14086]

Andy, you seem concerened with what the neighbours think. This mentality will have you buying what the neighbours aprove of and not necessarily what you might like.

I got 2 doblos.....that means I don't give a **** what the neighbours think

PTC is on diesels engines, it's provides instant heat from the heater vents for fast warm up of the cabin. It's electric unlike those stinky old webasto things.

 

[Jazzist]

Re: Re: The Fatherhood

I got 2 doblos.....that means I don't give a **** what the neighbours think

PTC is on diesels engines, it's provides instant heat from the heater vents for fast warm up of the cabin. It's electric unlike those stinky old webasto things.

The PTC is also on the Twinair for 500L mate :thumbup:

Saw a very shiny looking Doblo earlier in a kinda champagne metallic, looked fantastic, couple of old gimmers up front mind