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Apparently it comes ..or did..from FCA Italy
Apparently it comes ..or did..from FCA Italy
Technical Need Help with a Non starter
- Thread starter Tricolare
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Technical Need Help with a Non starter
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
Surely the supplying dealer would have made a note or a copy during the PDI process, I know we always had this in ours.
Why then is it a cost at all?
Rip off dealers.........
Why then is it a cost at all?
Rip off dealers.........
Strange one..
My money would be on the TDC sensor, particularly if it packed up while the car was being driven.. but you have a new one on board. Have you tested its voltage (I dunno what the test for the TDC sensor is, unfortunately).
If you suspect the ECU then it might be an idea to send it to one of those fixery places.. they'll be able to diagnose whether it's okay or not.
If the car just didn't start one day, rather than died during operation, then its more likely to be an immobiliser problem.. either in the key or in the reader (or in the BCM which holds the chips that verify the reader's signal).
I thought I read that the immobiliser prevents sparks.. but also kills the fuel pump (though this could be a different car, not how the 500 does it). If you have no fuel coming out of the fuel rail then that would prove it.. although if you do have fuel, that might still not rule out that it's the immobiliser.. the 500 might not disable the pump.
Ralf S.
My money would be on the TDC sensor, particularly if it packed up while the car was being driven.. but you have a new one on board. Have you tested its voltage (I dunno what the test for the TDC sensor is, unfortunately).
If you suspect the ECU then it might be an idea to send it to one of those fixery places.. they'll be able to diagnose whether it's okay or not.
If the car just didn't start one day, rather than died during operation, then its more likely to be an immobiliser problem.. either in the key or in the reader (or in the BCM which holds the chips that verify the reader's signal).
I thought I read that the immobiliser prevents sparks.. but also kills the fuel pump (though this could be a different car, not how the 500 does it). If you have no fuel coming out of the fuel rail then that would prove it.. although if you do have fuel, that might still not rule out that it's the immobiliser.. the 500 might not disable the pump.
Ralf S.
You could consider, just sometimes it pays to take it to the Fiat dealer/stealer my old Mazda had a cooling issue, I ran out of options/time/weather/ will power, I thought the car may have come to the end of its economical life, one last throw of the dice I took it to the Mazda dealer, 4 days later and £300 it was fixed and been fine since, one very happy bunny?
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
Well Todays update is that having contacted the original owner they checked and confirmed they didnt have the CODE card so I had to go to the local dealer and pay for a copy of the code.
Reprogramming the keys was easy enough but did not cure the issue and now in the Body Computer says the code in the NACK or NACKp has not been received and in the engine ECU it states in the Data Stream that in the Immobilizer Universal Code Status section that 'Not Received / ECU Coded'
Still no Spark and Injection Duration......
should I try the tap the positive connector on the battery hokum?
And still no response from my local registered Multiscan guy so I will try the next nearest....
The Quest Continues
Reprogramming the keys was easy enough but did not cure the issue and now in the Body Computer says the code in the NACK or NACKp has not been received and in the engine ECU it states in the Data Stream that in the Immobilizer Universal Code Status section that 'Not Received / ECU Coded'
Still no Spark and Injection Duration......
should I try the tap the positive connector on the battery hokum?
And still no response from my local registered Multiscan guy so I will try the next nearest....
The Quest Continues
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Seems the immobiliser is not recognising the key, and you said you've tried both keys, so that sort of rules out a dropped/damaged key.
Antenna around the ignition lock might be suspect, or any connections from there to the ECU. As immobiliser key chip data is stored in both ECUs, it is unlikely that both would fail, so I'd hope problem lies with the antenna or wiring.
Antenna around the ignition lock might be suspect, or any connections from there to the ECU. As immobiliser key chip data is stored in both ECUs, it is unlikely that both would fail, so I'd hope problem lies with the antenna or wiring.
Hi All,
Simon has contacted me as I have an ECU scan, I have had good results with this fantastic diagnostic, saved a few Fiats and Alfas from the scrap yard.
I will update if we find anything.
Cheers
Ian
Simon has contacted me as I have an ECU scan, I have had good results with this fantastic diagnostic, saved a few Fiats and Alfas from the scrap yard.
I will update if we find anything.
Cheers
Ian
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
Portland Bill
Yes I have tested the antenna ring and the resistance is spot on.
I also paid for the code and recoded the key and this was successful so i guess the connection to and from the ring is ok also. This is an assumption so I will check the continuity between the ring and the Body Computer.
I did check the continuity of the CAN line between the Body and the Engine through the ABS so they can talk with each other we just need to establish that they will.
GPSorting is coming in a few days with the Multiscan to see if this sheds any more light on the situation so here's hoping.......
The alloys have arrived so they will get cleaned and coated in readiness to be fitted and I may push the car out of the garage and complete the service and timing belt so that it is good to go when the starting is fixed.
The end to the quest may be in sight......
Yes I have tested the antenna ring and the resistance is spot on.
I also paid for the code and recoded the key and this was successful so i guess the connection to and from the ring is ok also. This is an assumption so I will check the continuity between the ring and the Body Computer.
I did check the continuity of the CAN line between the Body and the Engine through the ABS so they can talk with each other we just need to establish that they will.
GPSorting is coming in a few days with the Multiscan to see if this sheds any more light on the situation so here's hoping.......
The alloys have arrived so they will get cleaned and coated in readiness to be fitted and I may push the car out of the garage and complete the service and timing belt so that it is good to go when the starting is fixed.
The end to the quest may be in sight......
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The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Last year my dealer informed me that this in no longer a chargeable item and provided codes for all 3 of my cars free of charge.
I recommend you go and ask for the money back for the codes.
Coding keys is a workshop job and is reasonably chargeable but NOT supply of the codes.
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
Thanks for the feedback, I am in contact with Fiat UK so will bring it up with them.
I would not touch anything that might affect starting, until this issue is fixed. So I wouldn't touch the timing belt yet.
My thinking is, fix this fault, while you know everything else was working. Don't risk introducing new issues.
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
So the Quest is over, maybe...
A fellow FF member and Multiscan registered user, GPSporting2009, came to see the car and put the software to good use. The engine scan revealed an error code B10AA-4A Proxi Configuration Control (see image) that shows Incorrect Component Installed - INTERMITTENT. This code was not accessible with the Thinkdiag software.
I believe this is the cause of the repeated non starting but I also believe that the cause of this error is the Engine ECU Ground C060 mounted on the rear of the engine below the starter motor (see image and location PDF). The ground had already been cleaned and once the B10AA code was deleted and the Phonic Wheel configured the engine ran fine. More testing is required but I am confident this is now fixed, well 99% sure.
I am surprised that the car has so many different ground points and that the locations and quality of the wiring material is so poor. During this Quest I have systematically located and cleaned all but one within the engine bay and two further points within the cabin. The last ground behind the ABS unit will be completed from below. I have also rewired the cooling fan due to the ground wire being rotten internally. All connectors checked were refitted with vaseline to protect them for the future as were all of the grounds. The C060 ground area below the starter will be wire brushed and painted when I get underneath.
As well as the obvious assistance from the Multiscan I also found the data, and especially the wiring diagrams, contained within this website ( http://4cardata.info/elearn/312/2/312000000/312000000 ) to have been invaluable. I have attached a wiring diagram PDF as an example. Just remember the colour codes are in Italian.
Again a big thanks you to Ian, (GPSorting) for the Multiscan support and indeed everyone who posted their thoughts on the subject.
Now that the car has been detailed and the Abarth alloys fitted my wife is now very happy and very keen to get it out on the road!
View attachment Component location overview.pdf
View attachment Engine Wiring Diagram.pdf
A fellow FF member and Multiscan registered user, GPSporting2009, came to see the car and put the software to good use. The engine scan revealed an error code B10AA-4A Proxi Configuration Control (see image) that shows Incorrect Component Installed - INTERMITTENT. This code was not accessible with the Thinkdiag software.
I believe this is the cause of the repeated non starting but I also believe that the cause of this error is the Engine ECU Ground C060 mounted on the rear of the engine below the starter motor (see image and location PDF). The ground had already been cleaned and once the B10AA code was deleted and the Phonic Wheel configured the engine ran fine. More testing is required but I am confident this is now fixed, well 99% sure.
I am surprised that the car has so many different ground points and that the locations and quality of the wiring material is so poor. During this Quest I have systematically located and cleaned all but one within the engine bay and two further points within the cabin. The last ground behind the ABS unit will be completed from below. I have also rewired the cooling fan due to the ground wire being rotten internally. All connectors checked were refitted with vaseline to protect them for the future as were all of the grounds. The C060 ground area below the starter will be wire brushed and painted when I get underneath.
As well as the obvious assistance from the Multiscan I also found the data, and especially the wiring diagrams, contained within this website ( http://4cardata.info/elearn/312/2/312000000/312000000 ) to have been invaluable. I have attached a wiring diagram PDF as an example. Just remember the colour codes are in Italian.
Again a big thanks you to Ian, (GPSorting) for the Multiscan support and indeed everyone who posted their thoughts on the subject.
Now that the car has been detailed and the Abarth alloys fitted my wife is now very happy and very keen to get it out on the road!
View attachment Component location overview.pdf
View attachment Engine Wiring Diagram.pdf
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
Not So Fast.....
The 1% doubt has come back to bite me!
This morning the car wouldn't start. A quick scan revealed communication errors in the ABS ECU. I know that the ABS is between the NCM and ECM so maybe it is the last ground I haven't checked yet due to difficult location.
DTC's
C1221 - ECM Bus signal invalid
U0001 - C Can Bus Off
U1700 - BCM - NBC - Faulty
U1701 - Engine Controller - NCM - Absent
C1212 - Variant Coding - Not Configured
I have already checked the C Can continuity through the ABS to the ECM from the Body ECU so is the ABS at fault? Is it the ECM? BCM? or should i do the lock set with ECM and BCM regardless?
I will check the ground first I think.
The 1% doubt has come back to bite me!
This morning the car wouldn't start. A quick scan revealed communication errors in the ABS ECU. I know that the ABS is between the NCM and ECM so maybe it is the last ground I haven't checked yet due to difficult location.
DTC's
C1221 - ECM Bus signal invalid
U0001 - C Can Bus Off
U1700 - BCM - NBC - Faulty
U1701 - Engine Controller - NCM - Absent
C1212 - Variant Coding - Not Configured
I have already checked the C Can continuity through the ABS to the ECM from the Body ECU so is the ABS at fault? Is it the ECM? BCM? or should i do the lock set with ECM and BCM regardless?
I will check the ground first I think.
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
Ok Checked cleaned and actually repositioned the ground for easier access.
Started and stalled. Restarted and ran for 7 minutes. At this time I noticed that the NSF running lamp was indicated on the dash and checked it was off. Accessing the inspection hatch I wiggled the cabling and the lamp came on, a second later the engine stalled. Coincidence?
Looking at the wiring the only connection between lights and engine is the Body computer ground. This has already been checked and cleaned.
Leaning toward an ECU replacement but which one, or both?
Started and stalled. Restarted and ran for 7 minutes. At this time I noticed that the NSF running lamp was indicated on the dash and checked it was off. Accessing the inspection hatch I wiggled the cabling and the lamp came on, a second later the engine stalled. Coincidence?
Looking at the wiring the only connection between lights and engine is the Body computer ground. This has already been checked and cleaned.
Leaning toward an ECU replacement but which one, or both?
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
So after another day of it running and stalling but also running for 2 hours it failed to start this morning with no errors so I have given up trying to find the smoking gun and have ordered a breakers engine ECU to test.
I did want the full kit with the body computer etc but it seems the 51847332 version is like unicorn tears and too expensive to take a chance on at £350 when £45 is a better option to test.
Stay tuned for the hopeful conclusion...
I did want the full kit with the body computer etc but it seems the 51847332 version is like unicorn tears and too expensive to take a chance on at £350 when £45 is a better option to test.
Stay tuned for the hopeful conclusion...
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
The update is that I have made and installed new and additional ground cables,(one extra to the body and one direct to injection ground below the starter motor)
I have also bought the Multiecuscan software kit because the ThinkDiag system is ok but not enough for this level.
Finally I bought a second hand ECU from fleabay but now it seems this needs to be erased or virginised before installation.
Can I ask can I, and more importantly 'how' can I, virginise a second hand ECU? or is this more costs and more delays.
And before anyone points out that I should have bought the kit of BCM, keys etc this is currently not available for the 51847332 version.
Sadly, the quest continues.....
I have also bought the Multiecuscan software kit because the ThinkDiag system is ok but not enough for this level.
Finally I bought a second hand ECU from fleabay but now it seems this needs to be erased or virginised before installation.
Can I ask can I, and more importantly 'how' can I, virginise a second hand ECU? or is this more costs and more delays.
And before anyone points out that I should have bought the kit of BCM, keys etc this is currently not available for the 51847332 version.
Sadly, the quest continues.....
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
Update
So the ECU is on its way to JC Cars in Norfolk to be 'virginised'.
Lets see what happens upon its return. Confidence is not high........
So the ECU is on its way to JC Cars in Norfolk to be 'virginised'.
Lets see what happens upon its return. Confidence is not high........
OP
OP
Tricolare
Member
Re: Need Help with a Non starter No Errors
The Quest is done!
After all of the time trying to find the route cause the fault was internal to the Engine ECU and it has taken a replacement scrap ECU that also needed to be virginised before use.
A quick shout out to JC Cars in Norfolk who virginised the unit in quick time and for a special price. And GPSorting for your support with the Multiecuscan software.
In summary and for future reference : If you get a 500 1.2 Pop that cuts out sporadically may or may not restart with NO ERRORS in any of the systems you need to check for the following;
1. No Injection Time Duration in the parameters
2. Ignition coils are being loaded but are not 'Triggered'
Proxi alignment does not help and the fault is internal to the ECU. Option to solve the issue is to buy a replacement ECU that has already been virginised.
Once received the installation is simple procedure
1. Remove Battery positive and install the ECU
2. Refit the Battery positive and put the ignition on for 1 minute +
3. If the transmission is Manual you need to depress the clutch for 5+ seconds during this first minute
4. after 1 minute switch of the ignition for 1 + minute
5. After the second minute start the car and leave running until hot 75+ degrees C. The MIL will be flashing during this time.
6 once hot rev the engine to calibrate the Phonic Phase for the RPM sensor.
Do this three times to 5500rpm plus and return to Idle all within 10 seconds
7. Switch the engine off and clear any errors in the system.
This is completed
When I get time I will remove the back from the ECU and see if I can find a smoking gun within the unit and will post my findings.
If you have any further questions please let me know
The Quest is done!
After all of the time trying to find the route cause the fault was internal to the Engine ECU and it has taken a replacement scrap ECU that also needed to be virginised before use.
A quick shout out to JC Cars in Norfolk who virginised the unit in quick time and for a special price. And GPSorting for your support with the Multiecuscan software.
In summary and for future reference : If you get a 500 1.2 Pop that cuts out sporadically may or may not restart with NO ERRORS in any of the systems you need to check for the following;
1. No Injection Time Duration in the parameters
2. Ignition coils are being loaded but are not 'Triggered'
Proxi alignment does not help and the fault is internal to the ECU. Option to solve the issue is to buy a replacement ECU that has already been virginised.
Once received the installation is simple procedure
1. Remove Battery positive and install the ECU
2. Refit the Battery positive and put the ignition on for 1 minute +
3. If the transmission is Manual you need to depress the clutch for 5+ seconds during this first minute
4. after 1 minute switch of the ignition for 1 + minute
5. After the second minute start the car and leave running until hot 75+ degrees C. The MIL will be flashing during this time.
6 once hot rev the engine to calibrate the Phonic Phase for the RPM sensor.
Do this three times to 5500rpm plus and return to Idle all within 10 seconds
7. Switch the engine off and clear any errors in the system.
This is completed
When I get time I will remove the back from the ECU and see if I can find a smoking gun within the unit and will post my findings.
If you have any further questions please let me know
Congratulations
