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Old 1 Week Ago   #16
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

Quote Originally Posted by The Pretender View Post
I'm still contemplating a move to the new FIAT 500e (3+1 ??)
I think it's a good looking new design 500, TBH.
I agree, still a bit on the heavy side, but it's the first EV from a mainstream manufacturer that appeals to me.
Quote Originally Posted by Gina500 View Post
Have a look at the microlino, thatĎs cute. And small. And affordable...
I like that more than I should! And at only 513kg it is at least light. I can only wonder how it'll handle on country roads, though...
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

Batteries are actually lasting far longer than anyone expected, even in the early Leafs, which don't have the battery thermal management that most newer designs have. New EVs typically come with an 8 year battery warranty, and there are increasing numbers of independent EV specialists to carry out repairs. Several early Leaf owners think it worthwhile to have their batteries replaced with newer, larger packs and continue using the cars.

The 500e is quite cheap for an electric car at a starting price of about £20k. I tried to see how this compared to a new hybrid Pop, but Fiat don't seem to put prices on their website any more, you have to apply for a quote. Rubbish!
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

Quote Originally Posted by callisr View Post
Same. Batteries wonít last for long and if they manage a10 yr life span, itíll b probably mean the end of the car as it wonít be financially viable to buy a new battery


Thatís a worrying thought for the secondhand car market of the future.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #19
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

It'll take a while to catch on internationally, but I like Nio's approach to the battery problem.

Of course you can charge at home or at a charging point, but you can also pull in to a "power swap station" and they'll swap the battery out for a fully charged one.

They only sell to the Chinese market at the moment (as they are a Chinese company), but they already have over 190 "power swap stations", some fully automated that can perform a swap in 3 minutes.

As all their batteries are/will be interchangeable and upgradeable, you'd never end up with an old duff battery, they get replaced as and when needed and as batteries get better, so does the one in your car.

With well placed "power swap stations" battery range wouldn't be an issue either. Local trips you can charge at home or at a charging station, longer trips and you just pull in, swap the battery out and carry on faster than filling up with petrol.

It's not beyond imagination to retask petrol stations into power swap stations and if manufacturers started sharing battery technology, you could end up with the same battery systems in lots of different makes and models of cars.


BTW, the Isetta wasn't originally a BMW.
It was originally designed and made by ISO of Italy in 1952 with a split single two stroke engine (anyone remember them?) and made under license in Brasil by Romi. Early cars had 3 wheels, within a couple of years a 4th was added.

It wasn't until 1955 BMW bought the tooling then allowed Velam in France to make a version with a different body and I think they also allowed someone else in South Amercia to knock out copies, but I believe some of these companies had already swapped out the split single two stroke to a BMW sourced engine before BMW's offical involvement.

By the late 50's Brighton Railway Works produced the UK version, it wasn't a hit until they lost the 4th wheel and reverted to the orginal ISO 3 wheeler format so they came under motorcycle taxation.
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post

It's not beyond imagination to retask petrol stations into power swap stations and if manufacturers started sharing battery technology, you could end up with the same battery systems in lots of different makes and models of cars.
If this were to happen, I think the whole idea of electric cars would appeal to a considerably greater number of people!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #21
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

Not sure about the cosmetics of this particular Nio, think it's some special edition as they don't all look like this, but the battery swap station size, connectivety, ease and speed seem pretty good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XecoMJE3Rw

I do like the idea older and faulty batteries get removed from the system and you can upgrade as and when new bigger batteries come into circulation, also the station scans the car for faults at every swap.

There's obviously some sort of charge for the service and I believe Nio's aren't at the cheaper end of the EV scale, I think they compete with Tesla over there.

Nio as a company have been involved with Formula E for a while. They seem certain to break out into North America sometime soon as they are listed on the NYSE, up 1500% in the last year though no where near as overvalued as Tesla stock.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #22
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Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
It'll take a while to catch on internationally, but I like Nio's approach to the battery problem.
Tesla already tried and ditched the idea. There are quite a few problems with the model like, who owns the battery, what if the battery gets damaged whoís liable, how does the owner retrieve the battery if the car is written off or stolen. Who/how do you pay for the battery.
What happens if you end up with a faulty battery that damages the car.

Then as tesla found out, itís fine if you have only one model and one battery but throw in a number of different car models and then you need to store dozens of different batteries for dozens of cars.

I think this idea was what Renault where hoping for with their battery rental schemes but owners of cars didnít want to be paying £300 a month for the car then another £150 a month for the battery. Even when the car was paid off the cost of the battery would continue for ever.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #23
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post

Then as tesla found out, it’s fine if you have only one model and one battery but throw in a number of different car models and then you need to store dozens of different batteries for dozens of cars.
Just because Tesla failed doesn't make it wrong. The Titanic sank but people still go on cruises.

Tesla obviously have different ideas about mass production, perhaps making different cars that take the same battery architecture might be more efficient and cost effective.

That's not my crazy idea, car manufacturers have been doing something similar for over a century. They would have gone bust long ago if they produced a different engine for each of it's models, let alone all the other cross model parts.

In fact, they are now at a stage where they have alliances with other manufacturers, the engine in my car is result of a Renault, Nissan, Daimlar, Mitsubishi, Dongfeng cross sharing agreement and they aren't the only ones with cross sharing alliances, they all seem to have one or more agreements.

Nio have 4 cars and another in the pipeline with 3 different battery outputs, 70, 84 and 100kwh, with another 150kwh battery in the pipeline.

All their batteries fit all their cars.
I believe a battery swap is less than £20 at the moment and if you buy one of their cars without a battery it reduces the cost by around £8000 with a "battery as a service cost" of around £100 a month, which is 6.6 years when compared to the cost of the car with a battery.

You aren't tied to the same battery, if it drops below 80% it is removed from circulation.
You also aren't tied to the same battery output, when the 150kwh comes on line, it'll fit the Nio you already have, futureproofing your initial investment in the car.

I think as Nio own the battery they'll be some insurance costs within the battery service agreement and I'm sure dividing costs in case of total insurance loss is easily done, insurance companies do that now with finance company interests, if you still owe on it they'll settle them first.

Not a bad business model for the EV user but it doesn't have to be the one and only, perhaps more of these cross sharing alliances is what EV's need, proper manufacturers getting together with a long term, multi faceted solutions that are cost effective rather than individual companies overtly bent on driving up their stock price and inflating their egos.

Different makes and models running the same motor and/or battery architecture would reduce production costs and increase research and development budgets moving EV's on further and faster (but if you have a standard battery, not outpacing what you already have).

Infrastructure like maintaining, charging, battery swaping and upgrading would become more standardised, widespread and far cheaper, but still profitable and more of a benefit of the end user.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #24
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
Just because Tesla failed doesn't make it wrong. The Titanic sank but people still go on cruises.

Quite a jump there. Let’s look at it another way, how often are people routinely getting a ship from Portsmouth to NewYork?

Cruises are for fun, the titanic was in essence public transport of its time these days everyone flys.

I don’t see people nostalgically swapping car batteries for fun in the future.

I literally own shares in NIO so I’m not knocking the company but it’s worth noting as yet it hasn’t made any money.

The concept of battery swapping may be used somewhere like China where people are 1 being forced to buy electric cars, 2 have very limited space to store or charge a car where they live.

Here however we’re not being forced to buy an electric car, it’s more organic and those buying them at the moment generally have somewhere to charge them, and might own another ice car if they want to do a much longer journey.

Also charging speeds have been jumping ahead and while they claim it takes just ‘3 minutes’ to change the battery. The actual time from start to finish is more like 10 and that’s assuming you don’t have to wait to get started. (Top gear did a whole article about it) new electric cars can add huge amounts of power in just 10 minutes and if you look about you’ll see (also in China) they have made a car that can charge to full in just 5 minutes.

The problem Tesla had was people favoured simply charging there car rather than swapping batteries. The battery warranty on a Tesla is really good and so if you buy one you don’t really need to worry about battery degradation, I don’t think even the oldest uk Tesla’s are out of their battery warranty yet.

The other issue is cost. The little stations are manned 24/7 by a little man who operates it. They have to keep and charge batteries for swaps which as you’ve pointed out are £8k a go and they need to take and repair faulty batteries, which could become faulty from being repeatedly swapped, banged about or contacts worn.

If they need to change the design of the battery because of a change in technology or say safety legislation then they’d need to redesign the station. How many supposedly “future proof” designs change within a few years?

It’s far cheaper and easier to charge a battery in situ than it is to have an expensive and complex machine to swap the battery

Costs about £10 to charge a car at home in the uk and you say it costs £20 to swap the battery. So they would need to be swapping a battery every hour just to cover the operators wages without paying for the spare batteries or machines, charging the batteries or repairing faulty ones.

A public charger in the uk costs about £30 to charge a car from empty to full, so this battery swapping set up is costing £10 a battery less than the cost of just charging the battery, in the uk you might expect a battery swap to cost you £50 even £60 and while it’s quick what happens if you get to the station and there is a fault and they can’t change the battery, you can always plug a plug in, and with future cars being able to charge in 5-10minutes, what’s the need for this?

NIO will need to ditch this tech if they ever want to make money, just like Tesla and others before them did. There is no need for it the cars I understand are really rather good.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #25
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

There are no operators it fully automated, though I guess there will be operators that look after several stations which will be paid for in the service charge.

The stations take the space of two parking/charging spaces, although the swap itself takes a little over 3 minutes, the whole process takes about 12 start to finish, so they can "charge" up to 5 cars an hour from 2 spaces.

A Tesla S 100kwh which is comparable with a 100kwh Nio takes between 60 and 80 minutes to charge to around 80% on a 50kw charger, from a quick search there's only 4 of those within 6 miles of where I live, which is pretty much in the centre of London, so far less than 2 an hour can be charged from the same space that could charge many and swap 5.

In city centre locations where space is at a premium this utilises the space better and home charging for most city dwellers is virtually impossible. There are around 45 spaces on my road alone at not one of them can home charge on it.
My road isn't unusual, there are around 60,000 streets and roads within a 6 miles radius and they nearly all the same. Flats and appartments with limited zoned parking.

There's a fundemental fact there are limited spaces nearly everwhere. These spaces will need to be shared for charging and parking. Park in them and no one can charge, charge in them and no one can park, there has to be other options for EV's to be really viable for everyone.


I don't know how you have predicted the possible UK costs, I understand the average price of a Kw of domestic electricity is between 14p and 18p in the UK, so 100kw is between £14 and £18. 40 to 80% more than the £10 quoted and very much in line with a £20 battery swap. Ok, smaller batteries take less electricity and will cost less to charge, but that is hardly a like for like comparison.
But that's domestic price, a large company that buys lots of power will be able to negotiate cheaper rates.

You would think as Nio already have over 190 swap stations and performed over 2 million swaps any bugs would have already appeared and solutions found, which can't yet be said of the any future system like the 5 - 10 minute chargers.

The future has to untie the EV car from the socket at some point, for some of the time to be viable for everyone.
It's been done in the past and I can't see the future being any different.
Certain devices had to be plugged in to work, then they became battery operated and we binned those batteries when empty.
Then were fitted fixed rechargeable batteries within the device and now we can use seperate rechargeable batteries that are charged out of the device and swapped to give us the freedom to charge and use the device at the same time.
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

Nope there is an operator in every station, that adds considerable cost.

They canít ďchargeĒ 5 cars an hour because of the limitation they only have so many batteries on site at any one time, they have to be checked and then charged before they can be put back on a car if taken off and the time taken to charge one of those batteries is going to be comparable to charging any other electric car battery. Apparently itís less than 3 in an hour the station can actually manage but they have 5 batteries on site so if they changed all 5 batteries in the first hour of the day then you could be waiting a while when you arrive for your battery swap, if youíre there 6th customer.

As stated itís expensive and complicated and if you could charge a car in a comparable time without all that complication and equipment then companies are going to prefer that as are customers, plug in, to charge, go get a coffee and leave with a full battery in the same sort of time it takes to fill a tank.

Battery swapping is not going to be a future technology people use
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Old 1 Week Ago   #27
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post

Battery swapping is not going to be a future technology people use
The future isn't here yet but the EV is.

Then again the future never gets here and we all know inductive reasoning allows for false conclusions.

But it is today that we produce batteries that power our devices, you can buy some in packets by the counter in supermarket checkouts. They are generally in standardised sizes that can be fitted quickly, with similar products in similar standard sizes that you take out when flat and replace with a charged one while you recharge the original one.

We have been storing power in batteries and swapping them since 1800 and there were some standardised sizes within a 100 years of that date.

We as a species generally like to standardise, there is rarely just one standard and we do like to disagree about which standard to use or which is best. (Me, I'm 5 foot 10 inches and 90 kgs ish!) and it isn't unheard of for one to win out over another, even though it might not be the best.

Also the more mobile a device is, the more flexibilty users have needed to keep them powered. Take the humble radio, mains, battery, solar, Trevor Baylis' wind up one, a crystal set even powered itself from the radio waves it received all add to make it as flexible as possible.

So to think it's a good idea to standardise EV battery sizes to make them interchangeable and make them more flexible to fill them with power, like Nio, isn't a million miles off what we've been doing with batteries for over 200 years.

If you consider a fixed in position, unstandardised size battery with only one way to add power to it, that's actually a rather large leap backwards.
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

I wonder how all those with "on street " parking are supposed to charge their car.
Perhaps all car parking bays should have a charging point in the supermarket ?
Why is it not mandatory that all new build houses have a charging point?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #29
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Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
So to think it's a good idea to standardise EV battery sizes to make them interchangeable and make them more flexible to fill them with power, like Nio, isn't a million miles off what we've been doing with batteries for over 200 years.

If you consider a fixed in position, unstandardised size battery with only one way to add power to it, that's actually a rather large leap backwards.
This just wonít happen, not because itís not a sensible idea but because companies will never agree to make batteries all the same size, take companies like apple deciding to remove things like earphone sockets and SD Card slots from their products assuming thatís what people want then it causing problems for compatibility later. Then there are cars of all various shapes and sizes and a big part of electric car safety is keeping the battery safe from damage in an accident, because they get a bit explody

So a small car could not fit the battery if a big car, and vice verse, then there is cost. A small car like a fiat 500e only has a small battery come cars only have 24kw, but something like a £60k nio or £80 Tesla has a considerably bigger and more expensive battery. Should they be making huge battery packs for little cars with only a few batteries in them just so they can fit the same standardised dimensions of a big car battery... then have to make small cars much bigger.

Yes weíve had AA batteries for decades now but in recent years how many new battery powered devices come with a built in battery you charge from a usb cable? You can even buy AA batteries that charge off a usb cable!

They will never standardised batteries, theyíve not even standardised ev charging cables or stations. Ultimately the future is looking like super rapid charging is going to be the easiest way forward because every car will have the ability to plug in and charge, even if you have to wait 10 mins for a rapid charge thatís still infinitely less complex than changing a battery on an ev. And charging is also not that far detached from what people are used to doing with phones, laptops etc. You donít change your laptop battery when it runs low or your phone battery, you plug it in. And you get used to plugging it in at times you donít need to be using it
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Re: I could see my self in a new 500e in the near future.

I can see it happening.

EV's have been pretty specialist manufacturers until quite recently. Now the main stream manufacturers are getting on board, which to be honest, isn't that many.


How many different battery architectures and motors will say VW use for
Audi, VW, Seat, Skoda, Porsche products
or
PSA
or
Renault/Nissan/Daimlar Alliance
or
FCA
or
GM
or
Toyota, Daihatsu, Lexus
or
Ford, Lincoln, Troller.

Would say Ford spend billions developing their own systems or buy a company with a viable system already?
(that's why I hold Nio stock)

By way of sales, you'd only need say VW and Renault Alliance brands to get together and share EV systems to pretty much set the standard we'll use for the forseeable future.
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