Styling I've never been a fan of electric cars........

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Styling I've never been a fan of electric cars........

Hydrogen has it's place but it has issues. The big issue with H2 as a energy store to fill wind and solar gaps is storage of the hydrogen itself.


Robert G8RPI.


Currently we store hydrogen under pressure as a gas or cryo compressed as a liquid.

We already handle around 80 billion cubic metres of natural gas every year in the uk, so we're more than capable of handling large amounts of gas.

There are also other ways to store it within different materials, such as metal hydride, hydrogen sorbant and chemical storage systems.

The issue isn't as big as first thought.
 
Currently we store hydrogen under pressure as a gas or cryo compressed as a liquid.

We already handle around 80 billion cubic metres of natural gas every year in the uk, so we're more than capable of handling large amounts of gas.

There are also other ways to store it within different materials, such as metal hydride, hydrogen sorbant and chemical storage systems.

The issue isn't as big as first thought.

Natural gas and H2 are completely different, you cannot compare them. H2 boils at -253 deg C, as a gas you need 10,000 PSI to get reasonable mass. Both these take energy to store and liquid takes energy to recover to gas. Tanks are heavy increasing transport costs. Yes there have been advances with adsorbtion, absorbtion and hydrides but that is more complexity. Additionally H2 is explosive from 2% to 74% in air making leaks more hazardous.
H2 has a important place but there is a lot of work to do.

Robert G8RPI.
 
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Gas releases the least CO2 of the four, Biomass is second, So even without counting production or tranport energy gas is greener. The length of time carbon was bound in oil gas or wood is immaterial, we are releasing it and need to minimise that release. Rather than cutting down existing forrests (I'm not going to get into if they are being re-planted properly) we would be bettor off planting new fast growng trees for use as local future fuel while burning gas now. Unfortunatly that does not meet the requirements to claim zero carbon. Mid term we need more new technology nuclear fusion "burning" stored part used fuel (it's not waste) and depleted Uranium.
Hydrogen has it's place but it has issues. The big issue with H2 as a energy store to fill wind and solar gaps is storage of the hydrogen itself.


Robert G8RPI.

Your whole argument here is based on ignoring that CO2 from fossil fuel is what increases the overall levels of CO2 in the atmosphere along side a number of other harmful emissions that go hand in hand with burning fossil fuel.

As pointed out natural gas needs to be compressed, it needs to be moved on ships or pumped through pipes, these processes are no less energy consuming than moving biomass materials about. Same with coal same with oil. It’s a floored argument to claim it is more environmentally unfriendly to move biomass materials about than any other material.


The final part of your argument Is to make comments to whether or not the trees get replanted. Well to be honest it makes for a pretty poor business model to sell something that runs out when you have the means to replace it and sell more of it.

There is no doubting that if you burn gas coal or oil i you you are using and consuming something that you then can’t replenish. Whatever the arguments you want to make biomass production is “renewable”

I’m not saying biomass is the most environmentally friendly fuel In the world or claiming it’s not without its problems however burning a million tons of biomass that is responsibly farmed and managed is better for the environment than burning a million tons of coal which is why we are doing it, and why we are (for the time being) converting coal power stations to burn biomass.

The reason I initially replied to your need to explain biomass is because the nature of the arguments you’re making are biased and quite manipulative ignoring facts, ignoring processes involved in the cycles of CO2 and making unsubstantiated comments about whether or not trees that are cut down get replaced with your repeated comments of “I'm not going to get into if they are being re-planted properly”

If anyone wants to look up a more reliable source of information than Robert’s opinions then they can do this themselves a good place to start is here https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...ceofrenewableenergyconsumedintheuk/2019-08-30

Just to reiterate the point once more, Biomass is not going to be better than solar or wind produced energy, but it is better than what it replaces which is coal, and it is to all intents and purposes a CO2 neutral way to produce energy as the trees grown and burned releases only CO2 that those same trees absorbed from the environment while they were alive. I’m ignoring all the arguments about how you move this stuff around because everything needs to be moved around or dug out of the ground.
 
Your whole argument here is based on ignoring that CO2 from fossil fuel is what increases the overall levels of CO2 in the atmosphere along side a number of other harmful emissions that go hand in hand with burning fossil fuel.

As pointed out natural gas needs to be compressed, it needs to be moved on ships or pumped through pipes, these processes are no less energy consuming than moving biomass materials about. Same with coal same with oil. It’s a floored argument to claim it is more environmentally unfriendly to move biomass materials about than any other material.


The final part of your argument Is to make comments to whether or not the trees get replanted. Well to be honest it makes for a pretty poor business model to sell something that runs out when you have the means to replace it and sell more of it.

There is no doubting that if you burn gas coal or oil i you you are using and consuming something that you then can’t replenish. Whatever the arguments you want to make biomass production is “renewable”

I’m not saying biomass is the most environmentally friendly fuel In the world or claiming it’s not without its problems however burning a million tons of biomass that is responsibly farmed and managed is better for the environment than burning a million tons of coal which is why we are doing it, and why we are (for the time being) converting coal power stations to burn biomass.

The reason I initially replied to your need to explain biomass is because the nature of the arguments you’re making are biased and quite manipulative ignoring facts, ignoring processes involved in the cycles of CO2 and making unsubstantiated comments about whether or not trees that are cut down get replaced with your repeated comments of “I'm not going to get into if they are being re-planted properly”

If anyone wants to look up a more reliable source of information than Robert’s opinions then they can do this themselves a good place to start is here https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...ceofrenewableenergyconsumedintheuk/2019-08-30

Just to reiterate the point once more, Biomass is not going to be better than solar or wind produced energy, but it is better than what it replaces which is coal, and it is to all intents and purposes a CO2 neutral way to produce energy as the trees grown and burned releases only CO2 that those same trees absorbed from the environment while they were alive. I’m ignoring all the arguments about how you move this stuff around because everything needs to be moved around or dug out of the ground.
I did not say biomass was worse than coal. I said burning wood pellets to make electricity produces more CO2 than burning natural gas.
Re-planting trees is the most important bit of using wood pellets because:
A. If you just left the trees growing they would still be absorbing CO2 (yes not as much as new plants)
B. It's not renewable if you don't re-plant.
My main objection is the misleading use of the term biomass when refering to wood pellets.


Robert G8RPI.
 
I did not say biomass was worse than coal. I said burning wood pellets to make electricity produces more CO2 than burning natural gas.


A. If you just left the trees growing they would still be absorbing CO2 (yes not as much as new plants)
B. It's not renewable if you don't re-plant.
My main objection is the misleading use of the term biomass when refering to wood pellets.


Robert G8RPI.

So we are talking about North America not people going out and chopping down the rain forests of South America to feed insatiable appetite for electricity. There is a massive industry in North America for both planting and cutting down trees, and I know friends personally who have family in the states on which their land is used for this very purpose. To set your mind at ease. In any industry there is always potential for something to be done by an unscrupulous person, but cutting down trees and planting trees is still less damaging than digging up and transporting coal so it’s all good.

You can argue that it releases more CO2 if you want, if that’s the twisted way you want to spin it, but gas contributes more CO2 to the atmosphere than biomass, even if they cut down all the tress and weeds grow in their place those weeds will absorb some CO2 from the atmosphere and when the plants die and decompose they will lock that CO2 in the ground burning gas is a one hit thing and will only add to the problem there is no part of that process that captures or uses the CO2

Your objection to the term biomass, used for grouping together a multitude of biologically derived materials is duly noted.
 
Plants decomposing release greenhouse gases including CO2 and Methane depending on the means of decomposition They certainly don't lock CO2 in for the long term.


I thought you were educated ?? What do you think fossil fuels are!!!?

This should help get you started https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel

“A fossil fuel is a fuel formed by natural processes, such as anaerobic decomposition of buried dead organisms, containing organic molecules originating in ancient photosynthesis that release energy in combustion.”
 
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I thought you were educated ?? What do you think fossil fuels are!!!?

This should help get you started https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel

“A fossil fuel is a fuel formed by natural processes, such as anaerobic decomposition of buried dead organisms, containing organic molecules originating in ancient photosynthesis that release energy in combustion.”

If common decompositon led to oil we would have no issues! The key words in the reference you quoted are anaerobic and buried.

Normal decomposition of weeds etc is neither anaerobic or buried. In any case these can still produce greenhouse gasses, witness methane from waste tips.
Don't say "We capture that", not relevent, you were taking about plants growing where trees had been cut down.
 
If common decompositon led to oil we would have no issues! The key words in the reference you quoted are anaerobic and buried.

Normal decomposition of weeds etc is neither anaerobic or buried. In any case these can still produce greenhouse gasses, witness methane from waste tips.
Don't say "We capture that", not relevent, you were taking about plants growing where trees had been cut down.

Keep digging now, try and find your way out of this (hilarious btw) But you just literally claimed that plants don’t lock away CO2,

You claim your comment was in response to my specific circumstances yet you replied

Plants decomposing release greenhouse gases including CO2 and Methane depending on the means of decomposition They certainly don't lock CO2 in for the long term.

“Depending on the means of decomposition” so you where not referring to an specific circumstance but making a general statement... points for trying though.

Fact of the matter here is you stated categorically that [plants] They don’t lock CO2 away for the long term yet the very existence of fossil fuels and the whole basis of arguments against fossil fuels would not be if plants didn’t lock carbon away for in the case of fossil fuels, millions of years.
 
Thanks TrevC as this is GCSE level stuff.

Breaking it down simply
Plant live takes CO2 and photosynthesis to make sugars, carbohydrates plant grows gets bigger

Plant dies sugars break down. Yes there are products of decomposition that are released as gases, but there is also plenty of Carbon that it retained in the ground in the soil and by fossilisation.

This is the natural carbon cycle and it’s been going on for millions of years. Humans started screwing that up by digging up fossil fuels and burning fuels releasing carbon into the atmosphere and breaking the normal natural cycles that go on.

That link does show the carbon that gets stored in fossilisation.
These processed are what climate deniers don’t understand. There are natural processes where carbon gets exchanged but humans ruined that.
 
They are well hidden away on the Fiat website, but there's a fair bit of information there. Shame the only price I could see was for the entry level short range version, at £19995. The next level up lists the longer range as standard, but no price given. I think there are some prices quoted in some of the on line video reviews.
 
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