Technical Fiat 500 1.2 169A4.000 funny idle

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Technical Fiat 500 1.2 169A4.000 funny idle

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Hi guys,

I have a 2012 fiat 500. It idles a bit funny where it seems like it’s hunting a little bit for air. Then all of sudden it’s ok for a short period of time and then it’s like hunting a little again, the cycle just repeats.

No stored faults. Ignition coil, leads and plugs are new.

I checked MAP readings and they were jumping erratically. I remove the sensor, it had a film of oil on it so I cleaned and re installed. I checked what was happening with the throttle body. So when’s it’s normal idle it’s closed. When it’s hunting again,it opens a little every gasp of air.

I have checked the air filter, it’s brand new too.

Has anyone got any ideas, maybe someone’s had similar issues.

I thought ICV maybe? But I’m not sure it’s inside the throttle body or not.

Thanks again for you help aswell
 
Fist 500 1.2 169A4.000 funny idle

I had this on a recent project almost identical to what you describe. I changed, throttle body, coil pack and leads, injectors, fuel rail. Still the same.

Ended up selling the car with the fault. The buyer had a mechanic who watched my project video and worked out that a spark plug has been cross threaded so it was slightly at the wrong position.

The car drove fine, it was just on tick over. He retapped the thread and it was all back to normal.
 
I had this on a recent project almost identical to what you describe. I changed, throttle body, coil pack and leads, injectors, fuel rail. Still the same.

Ended up selling the car with the fault. The buyer had a mechanic who watched my project video and worked out that a spark plug has been cross threaded so it was slightly at the wrong position.

The car drove fine, it was just on tick over. He retapped the thread and it was all back to normal.

Thats a strange statement..

So the plug wasnt sealing..good to know
 
That's a very interesting outcome and I don't doubt for even a minute that the outcome has been that the car now runs fine, However - The diagnosis seem very strange to me.

Was the plug cross threaded but still screwed well home into it's hole? If it was the displacement of the tip of the plug which was causing the problem you wouldn't expect it to come and go (ie, running Ok some of the time and not at others). I think it much more likely that there was another factor which has been "disturbed" during the operation to re-thread the plug hole so it will be interesting to find whether it comes back after some time. If you hear of anything do let us know, I'm intrigued.
 
I removed and cleaned the throttle body today, and it was great. Left it running for an hour and no hunting. But now it’s comes back, it is ever so slightly now but it’s still there. Comes randomly and after a short while hunting it then idles normal.

Could it be a MAP sensor breaking down?

How would you diagnose a plug is cross threaded? They went in nice and easy and were torqued to spec.
 
I removed and cleaned the throttle body today, and it was great. Left it running for an hour and no hunting. But now it’s comes back, it is ever so slightly now but it’s still there. Comes randomly and after a short while hunting it then idles normal.

Could it be a MAP sensor breaking down?

How would you diagnose a plug is cross threaded? They went in nice and easy and were torqued to spec.
Thanks very much for the update and I'm sorry to hear you've still got problems.

A MAP sensor isn't difficult to test - in fact I'm a bit suspicious of Becky's and intend to test it very soon. You do need a bit of equipment to do it thoroughly. Namely a vacuum pump and a multimeter both of which are quite cheaply available on ebay. In fact I'm just about to buy one of the cheaper vacuum pumps for myself (the one with the red handles and brass body).

As far as I know most MAP sensors work the same in that they are a variable resistance monitoring manifold vacuum/pressure and have a 5 volt regulated supply coming in with another wire the signal wire and an earth. I think there can be two earths? anyway it's the signal wire you are looking for and you can't do any harm probing the plug to find that using your multimeter set to volts. Here is quite a good video telling you what you are looking for and it's how I'm going to check Beckys out. (Of course this is not a our engine so wire colours will vary by manufacturer.): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8EVhFc5Yqw
 
How would you diagnose a plug is cross threaded? They went in nice and easy and were torqued to spec.

Cross threaded spark plug threads. By definition a cross threaded spark plug (or actually any "crossthreaded" fixing) is one where the male and female threads have become mismatched during assembly. Most usually this will be because someone has failed to correctly align the axis of the male fixing with the axis of the female (or vice versa). In other words someone has tried to install, in this case, the spark plug, on the "squint". Most cylinder heads are now made from aluminium and plugs from steel so it's the thread in the head which ends up with thread damage.

So what are the noticeable "symptoms"? In extreme cases the plug will very obviously be at an angle to the hole and if it's bad enough to see this then it's not going to screw very far into the hole before it jams up altogether and you won't be able to screw it fully home. More subtly, this unskilled person may have started it off with the thread slightly crossed up and by applying excess force managed to get the plug to actually modify and "cut" it's own way through the top few threads until it starts to line up with the rest of the threads when it can then, still using excess force, be wound all the way down. In this scenario thin little shards of damaged thread are likely to become jammed up into the remaining good bits of thread and when you come along to remove the plug it will be very tight to wind out - in fact I've had plugs where the hex end shears right off leaving the threaded portion still in the thread!

So when you are installing a plug always do it with your fingers (you may need to use a length of rubber hose or a "retainer" type socket if the plug is deeply buried in the head) but don't even think about taking a "T" bar or ratchet to it until it's well home in it's thread. If it's too tight to spin on by hand take a closer look. It may just be carbon deposits in the threads but it may well be thread damage.

If the thread damage is not too extreme you can make your own very simple thread cleaning tool. Here's mine which I made from an old Mini plug many many years ago. Above it you can see a "proper" 14mm spark plug tap and you can see that the idea is the same in that the slots in the thread allow for sharp edges which will cut into and reform - to some extent - the damaged parts of the thread:

P1090469.JPG

P1090470.JPG

How do you like my gas welded joint?

Here also is a good wee video by one of my favourite You tube "guys" demonstrating how to easily make one yourself and how to use it. I prefer the idea of actually cutting deep slots as I have with mine because it traps the swarf much better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY_fuDRltZE

By the way, Anyone remember us all having a conversation about drills and thread extractors in a recent thread? I think we came to the opinion that "Dormer" was a "Rolls Royce" brand in that respect? Well this old plug tap of mine is a "Presto" - remember them? a very high quality brand too.

Whilst we are talking about plugs I've only ever had 2 sizes and they seem to fit all my needs. Here's my current haul:

P1090472.JPG

There are 3 of the bigger ones marked variously 7/16W - 13/16 (presumably AF?) and 21mm. They all fit the "standard" 21mm hex found on older as well as many of the plugs still in use today. The two smaller ones are marked 10mm and 16mm with the older one being the one marked 10mm which I bought for doing the plugs on the old OHC slant 4 engines in the Bedford CF van and Vauxhall Victor. I imagine the 10mm refered to thread diameter not hex size as the newer one marked 16mm fits the same sized plugs! Just to demonstrate here's a picture of the two sizes (demonstrated by the newest sockets) and the plugs they fit:

P1090473.JPG

Whilst we are on the subject, although there are many different plugs with different lengths of thread and different operating heat ranges also some have crush washers with others sealing on a taper they pretty much all use the same thread pitch - and here's a wee "pick and mix". You can see the two on the right are taper seating plugs and the one on the extreme right is one of the few "wierdies" in that it uses a bigger diameter thread (this one came from a Ford Pinto) however the vast majority are all the same size thread:

P1090471.JPG

This is fortunate because if you really can't get the thread to clean up with your DIY tool then you can use a thread insert (I've shown a couple of different length examples in the picture) to effect a repair. But not a particularly easy job if you've never done one before. There are lots of cheaper kits available today which actually work quite well but only include the driver tool whereas the original Helicoil kits, like mine, had an actual installing tool:

P1090474.JPG

which enabled the insert to be compressed as it was wound into it's hole which made installation, of spark plug inserts in particular, quite a bit easier to do. The big thing to remember when installing one of these "wire type" inserts is never to apply axial force, just allow it to wind itself in by twisting the installer. The insert is considerably larger in diameter than the hole you are trying to wind it into so when installed the expansion effect against the sides of the hole are what keeps it in place and, with luck, stops it comming back out again when you next remove the plug!
 
Ps to the above. If your plug screwed in nice and easy and torqued down satisfactorily I really wouldn't be worrying about it. If you suspect it may not be sealing properly because of the thread having been damaged and repaired then mix up a 50/50 mixture of washing up liquid and water and, sparingly, dribble a little around where the plug seals to the cylinder head then run the engine. it'll blow bubbles if there's a leak. Don't try painting it on with a paint brush or dribbling it on while the engine is running as you may get a very nasty shock!. Of course you can't do this on many more modern engines where the coil is actually on the plug.

I'm still puzzling over the concept of a cross threaded plug causing a misalignment of the spark such that it could give the problems you have. I suppose you might get problems if the plug was so crossthreaded that it was only screwed into it's hole by a couple of threads but then the running problem wouldn't "come and go" surely? I tink you're going to find either a wiring, sensor or gasket/breather/vacuum hose type "thingy" going on here. However I'm happy to be proved wrong and just can't wait for you to tell us all what it is!
 
Your 'long reach' sparkplug will use all of its @10 threads..

Wind it in until it gets a little harder to turn

Wind it back 6 turns..
If it doesnt go loose.. you are in the full thread ;)

Wind it back in those 6 turns

Then the final part will be stiff..
Torquegauging required :)
 
That's a very interesting outcome and I don't doubt for even a minute that the outcome has been that the car now runs fine, However - The diagnosis seem very strange to me.

Was the plug cross threaded but still screwed well home into it's hole? If it was the displacement of the tip of the plug which was causing the problem you wouldn't expect it to come and go (ie, running Ok some of the time and not at others). I think it much more likely that there was another factor which has been "disturbed" during the operation to re-thread the plug hole so it will be interesting to find whether it comes back after some time. If you hear of anything do let us know, I'm intrigued.



It ran(drove perfectly), when you stopped it idled fine for a few seconds then went rough. I don’t think the new plug was fully in due to being mis-threaded.
 
I'm still puzzling over the concept of a cross threaded plug causing a misalignment of the spark such that it could give the problems you have.

It's not the misalignment of the spark that's the problem; it's the loss of compression due to the imperfectly seated cross threaded plug. Poor compression on one cylinder will give exactly the symptoms this car was showing.

The compression loss would likely be greater once the engine was warm; the alloy head & steel spark plug core expand at different rates.

The OP is lucky to have got away with this; the usual rectification procedure is to remove the head and fit a helicoil insert. Given the widespread availability of cheap secondhand 500 engine parts, a replacement cylinder head (or even a replacement engine) might not have cost much more.

Anyway, glad it's sorted without having to resort to any of these things.

You always need to be careful with plug fitting, particularly in alloy heads; short reach taper plugs (fortunately not used on the 500) can be particularly awkward. I would never use anything more than a socket and extension to put in a plug until it was fully seated home. The 1.2 plugs are slightly awkwardly angled and the injectors are uncomfortably close; a universal joint between plug socket and extension helps somewhat. If in doubt, also count the turns.

Removing the coil pack gives better access and takes only a couple of minutes.

If you have a compressed air line, blow any debris away from the base of the plug before you start, to stop it falling into the cylinder.

For plug fitting, a 3/8" drive set is better and safer than a 1/2".
 
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Hi guys,

I have a 2012 fiat 500. It idles a bit funny where it seems like it’s hunting a little bit for air. Then all of sudden it’s ok for a short period of time and then it’s like hunting a little again, the cycle just repeats.

No stored faults. Ignition coil, leads and plugs are new.

I checked MAP readings and they were jumping erratically. I remove the sensor, it had a film of oil on it so I cleaned and re installed. I checked what was happening with the throttle body. So when’s it’s normal idle it’s closed. When it’s hunting again,it opens a little every gasp of air.

I have checked the air filter, it’s brand new too.

Has anyone got any ideas, maybe someone’s had similar issues.

I thought ICV maybe? But I’m not sure it’s inside the throttle body or not.

Thanks again for you help aswell

Probably ICV
 
Hello all,
My (daughters) fiat 500 1.2 2010 is having similar issues.
It starts every time fine and revs up but when left to idle, it starts spluttering and trying to stall before various lights come on. (EML, THROTTLE SENSOR LIGHT, ESP).
my obd2 scanner says map sensor fault code so, I put a new one on and it’s still the same.
I believe these have possibly two throttle control sensors, one of which is on the throttle body itself and the acceleration pedal.
I disconnected the throttle sensor on the throttle body and the car idles perfectly.
Reconnect and it plays up so, in this process of eliminating one from the other I replaced the pedal, put it all back together and it’s the same.
Today, I’ve replaced the throttle body and guess what!??? It’s the same, spluttering and light show.
I’ve tried the battery disconnect to reset the ECU and still the same.
I just can’t get past the car idling perfectly when I disconnect the throttle body sensor.
Any and all that I haven’t already tried would be appreciated.
 
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