General 500 top mounts & suspension

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General 500 top mounts & suspension

Baglady1990

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My top mounts are in dire need of restoration
They are really rusty despite drying them out adding lots of grease & buying covers!
They still get wet!

So my questions begin.....
New ones are cheap enough even though those nuts are gonna be a job to get off! Do I undo them with all tyres on the ground?

How do I know if my suspension is starting to wear out (I feel every bump pot hole)
Nothing to suspect they have ever been changed she’s 10 next year but only 41000 on the clock

Would you recommend they are changed? Or too soon!?
Front/rear?
& if so recommendations??
 
Replace EVERYTHING ie lower control arms, springs, shocks, top mounts, dust covers, top cups, covers, perhaps top spring cups, consider track rod ends, you'll need new drop links too. New rear shocks. I bought Lemforder lower control arms and top mounts/bearings, not cheap but possibly the best out there.
 
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My top mounts are in dire need of restoration
They are really rusty despite drying them out adding lots of grease & buying covers!
They still get wet!

Those parts are just cosmetic in normal use; they're only there to stop the struts falling out when you jack up the car. See this post for more on this.

The nuts can be challenging; they screw onto the dampers, which themselves are free to rotate within the strut, so the only way to stop the whole lot turning is with an allen key in the top of the damper. Once the whole lot is well rusty (generally after about 3 weeks on a 500, due to the stupid design), it may be difficult or impossible to get them off without damaging the damper threads (and if you do, then you will be replacing the struts). It usually makes little difference whether the weight of the car is on the wheels, or not - but it's easier to do if the car isn't jacked up as it will be more stable. Hint: Use a top quality allen socket, and make sure it is well seated - if you round off the hex section inside the damper rod, you'll probably have to resort to grinding the nuts off.

If their appearance bothers you. then change them if you want (provided you can undo those pesky nuts), but it won't affect the feel of your suspension in any way whatsoever.

None of the bits that wear are visible from under the bonnet; the real top mounts (which can and do wear, and will affect the handling when they do) are buried under the wing.

On a 10 year old car, there will likely be a small amount of wear in all the suspension parts. Collectively, these will make the ride/handling less crisp than when it was new. If you want to restore that 'new car' feel, then you'll likely need to replace the lot. However, if you use decent parts (and if you don't, it will never feel as good as a new car), then it won't be cheap.

Personally, I don't think it's worth spending that sort of money on a 10yr old car, so I'd replace anything that's excessively worn, and keep the rest.

My 10 yr old Panda, which has basically the same arrangement, now has almost 100k on the clock, and the whole lot is still original. It rides and handles fine, and passed its last MOT with no advisories on the suspension. For sure, if I replaced everything, it'd probably feel a bit crisper, but if you want that new car feel, the cheapest way to achieve it is probably to buy a new car and change it before the warranty runs out.

On an older car, it's all too easy to spend quite a lot of money replacing stuff which is a bit worn, but still perfectly safe.
 
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Those parts are just cosmetic in normal use; they're only there to stop the struts falling out when you jack up the car. See this post for more on this.

The nuts can be challenging; they screw onto the dampers, which themselves are free to rotate within the strut, so the only way to stop the whole lot turning is with an allen key in the top of the damper. Once the whole lot is well rusty (generally after about 3 weeks on a 500, due to the stupid design), it may be difficult or impossible to get them off without damaging the damper threads (and if you do, then you will be replacing the struts). It usually makes little difference whether the weight of the car is on the wheels, or not - but it's easier to do if the car isn't jacked up as it will be more stable. Hint: Use a top quality allen socket, and make sure it is well seated - if you round off the hex section inside the damper rod, you'll probably have to resort to grinding the nuts off.

If their appearance bothers you. then change them if you want (provided you can undo those pesky nuts), but it won't affect the feel of your suspension in any way whatsoever.

None of the bits that wear are visible from under the bonnet; the real top mounts (which can and do wear, and will affect the handling when they do) are buried under the wing.

On a 10 year old car, there will likely be a small amount of wear in all the suspension parts. Collectively, these will make the ride/handling less crisp than when it was new. If you want to restore that 'new car' feel, then you'll likely need to replace the lot. However, if you use decent parts (and if you don't, it will never feel as good as a new car), then it won't be cheap.

Personally, I don't think it's worth spending that sort of money on a 10yr old car, so I'd replace anything that's excessively worn, and keep the rest.

My 10 yr old Panda, which has basically the same arrangement, now has almost 100k on the clock, and the whole lot is still original. It rides and handles fine, and passed its last MOT with no advisories on the suspension. For sure, if I replaced everything, it'd probably feel a bit crisper, but if you want that new car feel, the cheapest way to achieve it is probably to buy a new car and change it before the warranty runs out.

On an older car, it's all too easy to spend quite a lot of money replacing stuff which is a bit worn, but still perfectly safe.



Thank you JK just booked my service & MOT for mid aug I’ll wait & see if anything shows up!
I would be looking at at least replacing the shock absorbers but at this stage .. if I were to only replace the bottom half and re use the springs ect would that even make a difference?
Also I’ve seen that I would have to hire a device to depress the spring

I know the car will be 10 next year but I’m serious on the upkeep! It may not seem or actually be economical but I love this car!
And I want to keep her as tip top safe & as pristine for as long as possible!
 
I would be looking at at least replacing the shock absorbers but at this stage .. if I were to only replace the bottom half and re use the springs ect would that even make a difference?
Also I’ve seen that I would have to hire a device to depress the spring

Yes, shock absorbers lose some of their damping (=shock absorbing capability) as they age; I'd expect to notice a difference if replacing 10yr old shocks.

The old fashioned test is to bounce the relevant corner of the car; if it oscillates before finding its rest position, the shock absorber on that corner is definitely shot.

You'll need spring compressors to change the front shocks; a DIY set is cheap enough to buy rather than hire; this is probably the cheapest I'd trust to do the job with a modicum of safety. I've got a pair of these myself and have used them without issue; they're easily 30 years old now. But do be careful; if a spring does let go whilst compressed, it could hurt you quite badly. The single claw ones in particular can be rather dangerous.

At least it means you won't have to worry about damaging the threads when removing the top nuts; the threaded section is part of the shock absorber.

Oh, and in case you didn't know already, always change shock absorbers as a pair, or the handling may be, well, peculiar.
 
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That's the type of compressors I used, whilst not hard you may think of having a garage replace them? I did a guide on replacing them in the 500 guides section if you want to see how to replace them, a Haynes manual helps too.

That would be my reccomdned course for the front suspension as you can cause a lot of damage if the spring dosnt compress correctly
You also have the issue of if the pinch bolts snap trying to take them out



The rear on the other hand aea a very easy DIY job
 
Yes, shock absorbers lose some of their damping (=shock absorbing capability) as they age; I'd expect to notice a difference if replacing 10yr old shocks.

The old fashioned test is to bounce the relevant corner of the car; if it oscillates before finding its rest position, the shock absorber on that corner is definitely shot.

You'll need spring compressors to change the front shocks; a DIY set is cheap enough to buy rather than hire; this is probably the cheapest I'd trust to do the job with a modicum of safety. I've got a pair of these myself and have used them without issue; they're easily 30 years old now. But do be careful; if a spring does let go whilst compressed, it could hurt you quite badly. The single claw ones in particular can be rather dangerous.

At least it means you won't have to worry about damaging the threads when removing the top nuts; the threaded section is part of the shock absorber.

Oh, and in case you didn't know already, always change shock absorbers as a pair, or the handling may be, well, peculiar.



Fantastic! I’ll be looking at sorting front & rear after my MOT!
All being well it will sail through![emoji108] I’ll be asking a few more questions of course though I’ve versed myself on fitting but inevitable there may be issues! But from what I’ve seen once top mount out and I’ve removed a few bits and the bolts it should just come out! Yes of course I’ll be doing both front on same day and both rear day after.
 
That would be my reccomdned course for the front suspension as you can cause a lot of damage if the spring dosnt compress correctly

You also have the issue of if the pinch bolts snap trying to take them out







The rear on the other hand aea a very easy DIY job



Any reference on doing the rear?
 
Fantastic! I’ll be looking at sorting front & rear after my MOT!
All being well it will sail through![emoji108] I’ll be asking a few more questions of course though I’ve versed myself on fitting but inevitable there may be issues! But from what I’ve seen once top mount out and I’ve removed a few bits and the bolts it should just come out! Yes of course I’ll be doing both front on same day and both rear day after.

Looks like this once out/Going back in
 

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Looks like this once out/Going back in


ive got all the kit to replace everything! ill be starting on the rear when car back from paint shop hopefully weekend!


the back does look relatively straight forward as long as bolts shift! my question is what torque should the rear bolts be when fitted? and will it be the same torque for the front?
worship.gif
 
Fantastic! I’ll be looking at sorting front & rear after my MOT!
All being well it will sail through![emoji108] I’ll be asking a few more questions of course though I’ve versed myself on fitting but inevitable there may be issues! But from what I’ve seen once top mount out and I’ve removed a few bits and the bolts it should just come out! Yes of course I’ll be doing both front on same day and both rear day after.
Hi Baglady, hope you are keeping well in these uncertain times.

I did exactly this job on Felicity, our 2010 Panda 1.2 Dynamic Eco, about two years ago. She had decided to blow the seal on one of the front shocks and emptied all the oil out which made a bit of a mess and made handling interesting. As the bottom arms looked to be in good order I didn't change them (I believe it's the rear rubber bushes you have to look out for) but I did renew both shocks, both top mounts, both road springs and all four of the pinch bolts which hold the struts to the hub uprights.

The top nuts, which you can see under the bonnet, are only there to hold the weight of the strut when the car is jacked up. They are not involved in retaining the spring - that is a second nut under the "top hat" you can see and which often looks really rusty. (I'm talking Panda here, but I think the 500 is the same? On Felicity these nuts were so tight I bent a good quality Allen Key trying to undo them. In the end I only succeeded by leaving the car resting it's weight on the strut (I mean I didn't jack it up) and letting my big air impact wrench "terrify" them into submission! The two pinch bolts at the bottom of the strut put up a vigorous resistance too. Despite copious quantities of Plus Gas, one on each side snapped off and the other two resisted valiantly. I was very glad for the advice given by Forum friends to replace all four bolts and nuts (they are not standard strength either - ie, 8.8 - they are 10.something) and they had to be punched out. None of this was horrendous but it wasn't that easy either. Getting the top nuts off without my air gun would have been much more challenging though.

When you come to compress the springs watch them very carefully as you tighten the compressors. If the spring starts to take on a "banana" shape you really do need to stop and reposition the clamps - they need to be absolutely on either side of the spring, 180 degrees apart and only do them up a few turns at a time, first one then the other and so on. Also only tighten them enough to take the weight off the spring pans, There's no point tightening them more than needed and you may deform the spring. If you have all metal compressor clamps I like to put a wee bit of webbing under the hook ends to protect the surface finish on the spring and I find it also helps to stop the compressor from slipping.

The top spring mount has a wee "tang" which has to line up with the pinch bolt flanges at the bottom of the strut otherwise the spring won't be lining up correctly and you must do this before the spring compressors are released and exerts force on the retaining pan.

I was very pleased with the outcome and in particular the fact that she has lost her slightly nose down attitude - which I've noticed on many other older Pandas. I believe it's due to a combination of slightly "relaxed" road springs and top mount rubbers. Other than the problems corroded fixings can cause, this is quite a nice job to do and very satisfying when you're finished. I bought all my parts from Shop4parts, including the, unknown to me "Top Line" branded shockers, However, as with everything else they've ever supplied to me, they seem to be of good quality and are working well.

Good luck with it all, hope you enjoy doing it
Regards
Jock
 
Hi Baglady, hope you are keeping well in these uncertain times.



I did exactly this job on Felicity, our 2010 Panda 1.2 Dynamic Eco, about two years ago. She had decided to blow the seal on one of the front shocks and emptied all the oil out which made a bit of a mess and made handling interesting. As the bottom arms looked to be in good order I didn't change them (I believe it's the rear rubber bushes you have to look out for) but I did renew both shocks, both top mounts, both road springs and all four of the pinch bolts which hold the struts to the hub uprights.



The top nuts, which you can see under the bonnet, are only there to hold the weight of the strut when the car is jacked up. They are not involved in retaining the spring - that is a second nut under the "top hat" you can see and which often looks really rusty. (I'm talking Panda here, but I think the 500 is the same? On Felicity these nuts were so tight I bent a good quality Allen Key trying to undo them. In the end I only succeeded by leaving the car resting it's weight on the strut (I mean I didn't jack it up) and letting my big air impact wrench "terrify" them into submission! The two pinch bolts at the bottom of the strut put up a vigorous resistance too. Despite copious quantities of Plus Gas, one on each side snapped off and the other two resisted valiantly. I was very glad for the advice given by Forum friends to replace all four bolts and nuts (they are not standard strength either - ie, 8.8 - they are 10.something) and they had to be punched out. None of this was horrendous but it wasn't that easy either. Getting the top nuts off without my air gun would have been much more challenging though.



When you come to compress the springs watch them very carefully as you tighten the compressors. If the spring starts to take on a "banana" shape you really do need to stop and reposition the clamps - they need to be absolutely on either side of the spring, 180 degrees apart and only do them up a few turns at a time, first one then the other and so on. Also only tighten them enough to take the weight off the spring pans, There's no point tightening them more than needed and you may deform the spring. If you have all metal compressor clamps I like to put a wee bit of webbing under the hook ends to protect the surface finish on the spring and I find it also helps to stop the compressor from slipping.



The top spring mount has a wee "tang" which has to line up with the pinch bolt flanges at the bottom of the strut otherwise the spring won't be lining up correctly and you must do this before the spring compressors are released and exerts force on the retaining pan.



I was very pleased with the outcome and in particular the fact that she has lost her slightly nose down attitude - which I've noticed on many other older Pandas. I believe it's due to a combination of slightly "relaxed" road springs and top mount rubbers. Other than the problems corroded fixings can cause, this is quite a nice job to do and very satisfying when you're finished. I bought all my parts from Shop4parts, including the, unknown to me "Top Line" branded shockers, However, as with everything else they've ever supplied to me, they seem to be of good quality and are working well.



Good luck with it all, hope you enjoy doing it

Regards

Jock



Hey ho I’m good thank you hope you n yours well too!
Well my baby Gucci is off to the paint shop tomorrow for a well deserved touch up & new decals ..no car for a few days so I’ll have to do some housework [emoji23]

I’m looking at doing the rear struts & springs at the weekend I’m thinking start with the “easier” part! Not that undoing those bolts is easy! But I have invested in some pretty decent tools! And I’m feeling very capable

When it comes to the front I’m not going to rush and I very much appreciate all the advice!
I’m a little worried about those top mounts on my car as they are in bad shape (rusteeee!) but as yet I’ve not attempted to loosen and they may not be as bad as I’m thinking!
But I am looking forward to doing them as indeed it’s very satisfying especially the fact I’m expanding my knowledge & skills!
 
For the top nuts soak them in release oil over a few days might help, but never seemed to help me when undoing nuts?



Got my kit today but I think I’m missing something?? Isn’t there a disc that sits between the spring & top strut mount?? I did go for the basic “factory “ 500 suspension kit I’ll post a pic just hope that teddy doesn’t re appear!!
Also the top strut mount is it circle side down or up?IMG_4968.JPG
 
Got my kit today but I think I’m missing something?? Isn’t there a disc that sits between the spring & top strut mount?? I did go for the basic “factory “ 500 suspension kit I’ll post a pic just hope that teddy doesn’t re appear!!
Also the top strut mount is it circle side down or up?View attachment 211535

Here's a couple of pictures of my Felicity's new struts, all built up and ready to go. Bearing in mind that she's a 169 model (2010) Panda. In the first picture you can see the second nut which lives under the top nut and retaining plate you see from under the bonnet when assembled. The new struts came with new top nuts but not these second top mount retainer nuts. These second nuts were in good condition and I just reused them. I've read that most people seem to just reuse them. These are the nuts which restrain the spring which is why you can undo the top nut to remove the strut from the car without the whole thing flying apart. DON'T try to undo that second nut without restraining the spring - with compressors - first! If you look closely you can see the green webbing under the compressor hook to protect the finish on the spring and reduce the chances of a metal on metal slip between the compressor and spring.

P1080607.JPG

P1080610.JPG

The light colored "plates" at the top of the springs are the top spring retaining plates. Here's a more close up picture of mine:

P1080596.JPG

They were quite rusty but still good and strong so I cleaned them up and painted them before reusing them. You can clearly see the wee square shaped "tabs" which stick out the side. These top plates have to be fitted so that these tabs align with the brackets at the bottom of the strut where the two hub pinch bolts fit. You can see this from the second picture showing the assembled struts.

Here's how I started out trying to slacken the top mount nuts:

P1080579.JPG

And here's the twisted Allen Key:

P1080580.JPG

And here's how I finally shifted them:

P1080581.JPG

The old struts were in "shocking" condition:

P1080584.JPG

P1080585.JPG

All installed and ready just to refit the wheel:

P1080611.JPG

If you look on the inner wing you can see some of the oil still there which got sprayed out when the seal failed on the old strut. The one on the O/S wasn't so bad but I would never do just one strut and actually once I got it stripped down you could see it wouldn't have lasted all that much longer anyway.

Looking at this it looks like you will need to reuse your top spring mounting plates as I don't see them in your illustration?

Kind regards
Jock
 
Here's a couple of pictures of my Felicity's new struts, all built up and ready to go. Bearing in mind that she's a 169 model (2010) Panda. In the first picture you can see the second nut which lives under the top nut and retaining plate you see from under the bonnet when assembled. The new struts came with new top nuts but not these second top mount retainer nuts. These second nuts were in good condition and I just reused them. I've read that most people seem to just reuse them. These are the nuts which restrain the spring which is why you can undo the top nut to remove the strut from the car without the whole thing flying apart. DON'T try to undo that second nut without restraining the spring - with compressors - first! If you look closely you can see the green webbing under the compressor hook to protect the finish on the spring and reduce the chances of a metal on metal slip between the compressor and spring.



View attachment 211546



View attachment 211547



The light colored "plates" at the top of the springs are the top spring retaining plates. Here's a more close up picture of mine:



View attachment 211548



They were quite rusty but still good and strong so I cleaned them up and painted them before reusing them. You can clearly see the wee square shaped "tabs" which stick out the side. These top plates have to be fitted so that these tabs align with the brackets at the bottom of the strut where the two hub pinch bolts fit. You can see this from the second picture showing the assembled struts.



Here's how I started out trying to slacken the top mount nuts:



View attachment 211549



And here's the twisted Allen Key:



View attachment 211550



And here's how I finally shifted them:



View attachment 211551



The old struts were in "shocking" condition:



View attachment 211552



View attachment 211553



All installed and ready just to refit the wheel:



View attachment 211554



If you look on the inner wing you can see some of the oil still there which got sprayed out when the seal failed on the old strut. The one on the O/S wasn't so bad but I would never do just one strut and actually once I got it stripped down you could see it wouldn't have lasted all that much longer anyway.



Looking at this it looks like you will need to reuse your top spring mounting plates as I don't see them in your illustration?



Kind regards

Jock



Oh wow ? thanks jock! This really helps a lot! Yes I’ll have to try re using my mounting plates hopefully they in better condition than my top mountings!

I’ve got the dreaded rust!! & of course as long as I can get them off I’ll have to paint mine with hammerite as they don’t seem to be available to buy! Just from China so I’ve seen

Thank you for the advice I’ll be referring back to it come the weekend!
 
Oh wow ? thanks jock! This really helps a lot! Yes I’ll have to try re using my mounting plates hopefully they in better condition than my top mountings!

I’ve got the dreaded rust!! & of course as long as I can get them off I’ll have to paint mine with hammerite as they don’t seem to be available to buy! Just from China so I’ve seen

Thank you for the advice I’ll be referring back to it come the weekend!
Felicity's plates were quite crusty with rust but, as you can see, they cleaned up quite nicely with a wire brush in my drill and I painted them with Powerfix (Lidl brand) anti-rust metal paint. I've now used it on a few things and really quite like it. I used to slap Hammerite indiscriminately on almost everything a few years ago but I find it's a bit brittle and tends to chip rather easily. I still use it but for under car restoration I now prefer a slightly softer paint and I find a specific chassis paint/enamel works better.
 
Felicity's plates were quite crusty with rust but, as you can see, they cleaned up quite nicely with a wire brush in my drill and I painted them with Powerfix (Lidl brand) anti-rust metal paint. I've now used it on a few things and really quite like it. I used to slap Hammerite indiscriminately on almost everything a few years ago but I find it's a bit brittle and tends to chip rather easily. I still use it but for under car restoration I now prefer a slightly softer paint and I find a specific chassis paint/enamel works better.



Good to know thank you I’ll be heading to Halfords or b & q before I start!
Not at all looking forward to those nuts! But persistence pays and all I can do is try my best!! Obviously I’ll let you know how I get on!
Going to replace the rear lot first!
 
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