Technical Sump

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Technical Sump

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The land that time forgot
I was rummaging around underneath The Younger Mrs S'. Rasputin looking for a persistent oil drip.... and I noticed some bodgery of the sump. It had looked in not bad shape when I bought it.. but some wet weather and then idleness over the Miley lock-down has not been kind to it.

It seems that a previous owner had spray painted (Hammerite?)) over some previous semi-hardened finish (underseal?) which had obviously since decided that the rust already on the sump, and 120C of oil temperature were not quite its cup of tea, and so has started to abandon ship.

I didn't want to poke at it too much in case it all got emotional... but it *looks* like the sump has a hole in it and the oil is eventually working its way out through the different layers until it reaches freedom.

I may be wrong and maybe a good soda-blast and re-poxy is all that's needed (the oil could just be spreading from the plug) but if the sump is terminally knackered, is the sump straight forward to remove?

I can see the exhaust is in the way (should be no bother for a man armed with spare studs/bolts and an angle grinder) but is the pickup a "dangler" or a "dog-leg" (that needs manouvering of the sump to get it on? I suppose I could just try it... but curious about any forewarning/tips so I can be ready and give myself enough time for it.


Ralf S.
 
I don't know what breed Rasputin is but had to replace a leaking rusted through clio mk3 2010 petrol sump recently. Brand new delivered from ebay £25 couldn't believe it. Plus it fitted correctly (-:
Most difficult part of job was getting old sump to let go of factory fitted silicon rtv sealant.
 
As far as Fiat's are concerned, I've only done the steel sumps on Panda and will soon be doing one on my boy's 2012 Punto 1.4 8 valve - been waiting for the better weather but it's a "brass monkey" wind up here in Edinburgh just now. Getting rid of the downpipe at the front by splitting of the exhaust and then removing the manifold bolts so the front exhaust section can be moved out of the way really makes things much easier. Although I did Felicity's (1999 Panda Parade) without removing the manifold. Bit of a pain though and I kept rubbing bits of sealant off on the big ends and other engine bits as I was trying to locate it.

The bottom cover for the flywheel needs to come off to access the two rear fixings and it's a real bu***r breaking the hold of the sealant, especially if it's the original Fiat stuff. Lots of hammering of big screwdrivers and levering whilst trying not to damage the mating faces of the bottom of the block. All in all though not too bad a job to do if none of the wee bolts and nuts (2 nuts on studs at either end) shear. The bolts holding the exhaust flange together under the sump on the Punto are probably going to be my biggest challenge as they are so rusty there is no chance they are going to undo. I'll have to cut through them and drill out the remains before using nuts and bolts when putting it back together.

By the way, make sure you use a "Cat friendly" sealant on the sump flanges. I use Loctite SI 5980 (from Halfords usually). Some silicone sealants can leach silicone into the engine oil which will then, very slowly, poison the Catalytic converter as a small amount of engine oil is inevitably burnt. Look carefully at the packaging. In fact as all engines are now catalyzed, it's good practice to just use this type of sealant anyway.
 
Just a wee Ps to the above. Buy a good quality sump. I bought a cheap pattern made jobbie from my local factor for Felicity and the mechanical fit was awful. Widely varying gaps all round requiring much more sealant than I would have liked. In fact it didn't seal the first time and I had to remove it after about a week, clean everything up and refit with much thicker beads of sealant - what a pain! I'll be trying a sump from Shop4parts for the Punto as I've found parts supplied by them in the past to be of excellent quality.
 
6 years for a sump pan it seems ours has had 1 and will need another in a few years I suspect
Sounds about right. Our old 1999 Panda Parade was actually oozing through the metal, like a sponge! Our 2010 Panda, which we bought just over 3 years ago, had obviously had one fitted probably about a year before we bought her and my boy's 2012 Punto, which I think is still on it's original one, is very definitely on borrowed time! It's really crusty, I'm afraid to try rubbing it down and I am expecting to see it start leaking at any moment.
 
Rasputin is a regular 1.2 Pop of 2013 vintage so it sounds like it’s very typical.

The oil looks like it’s oozing out rather than properly leaking... so there must be one or several pin holes in the metal. I’m not touching it for the moment :D but it’ll probably look like a teabag once it’s off.

What’s the story about 8mm holes and 10mm holes? Some sellers have sumps with 10mm holes and others say 8mm. Is it all the holes or just the ones for the studs that are 8 or 10mm?

I’ll probably go for a Febi Bilstein as a good compromise between genuine part and unbranded. I guess the unbranded ones are thinner than OE, if that’s possible... :D but the branded ones will just fit better I expect, so it’s worth some extra cost.

Anything suspension related or fitted under the car I usually give an extra coat of smooth Hammerite, so hopefully that and the half a micron of thicker metal will help it last forever.

It doesn’t look like it’s got a baffle so I guess the oil pickup doesn’t have to be fed through it... so the sump just falls away once the mastic is cut through..? :D

Ralf S.
 
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I bought a VERY rough mk2punto

(probably same pan on same FIRE design..)

It was always dripping.. so I bought a cheap sump

It is 'bonded' in place by a broad bead of hard setting goo..

Wrestling it around for removal.. it ended up in 4 pieces ( small wonder it leaked !!)

This car was rotten.. floor..sump ..etc

But was £250 when most were £2.5k
(Turned out it had been a 'flood victim')

So there was precious little sump swap knowledge out there

I broke exhaust at joint under car.. behind sump.. and found the pan moved ok.. but fouled on oil pick.up which I unbolted

Local motorfactor were as new to sumps as me and sold me a runny sealant.. like hylomar :(

Of course.. after 3 attempts.. it still oozed around the crankjoins :eek:

It'll do.. and it lasted the 3 years I kept it

Panda 1.1 2004.. original sump 15 years later.. :)

Coastal air is probably best avoided ;)
 
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What’s the story about 8mm holes and 10mm holes? Some sellers have sumps with 10mm holes and others say 8mm. Is it all the holes or just the ones for the studs that are 8 or 10mm?

Felicity's (1992 - sorry, I think I previously said she was a 1999? It was my Cordoba that was a 1999 car) Anyway, Felicity's were all 8 mm if my memory serves me correct. I'm of the impression that the Punto's (2012 1.4 8 valve) are all 10 mm except for the ones either side of the crankshaft - 2 studs at either end - which I think are 8 mm. Once the shutdown is lifted up here in Scotland I'm probably going to have a go at this so I'll post (if I remember) about what sizes they turn out to be.

Ps. Shutdown is relevant as the Punto lives at my boy's house on the other side of the city.
 
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I've changed a few sumps in my time & my findings are, what ever sump you choose OE or after market, I always add some coats of protection & finally truck bed liner spray, this stuff is pretty much like armour, impregnable to chipping.The first coat must be etch primer otherwise whatever you choose will not adhere too well.

Last wee tip. When taking off old sump, when you get all the bolts out & slacken sump, put a couple of bolts loosely back in front & back, this will stop the sump attacking you when you finally pull the thing off. When you have finished & new sump in place leave over night, this will allow sealant to set. Make sure the surface is completely clean of oil when attaching new sump. Go all round the bolt holes with sealant & use the correct sealant.
 
Is it obvious by inspection that the sump is rusting? And does it mostly suffer on the underside and front where it gets blasted by stones and grit?
My wife's 1.2 is 5 years old, but only covered 26,000 miles, so may not be too sandblasted yet.
 
Is it obvious by inspection that the sump is rusting? And does it mostly suffer on the underside and front where it gets blasted by stones and grit?
My wife's 1.2 is 5 years old, but only covered 26,000 miles, so may not be too sandblasted yet.

Yes, the sump seems oily on its leading face, , as if the oil is weeping through the metal surface.

Unfortunately (for diagnosis) previous owner(s) have applied a couple of paint finishes to the sump (it looks like enamel/Hammerite over a previous dry mastic type finish like underseal). If you press on it, oily water oozes out, so there's oil and/or water in there, under the paint. I wonder whether the extra paint that was applied (maybe the sump is/was fine) has actually made things worse.

But I'm reluctant to scrape it off in case it uncovers a proper hole.

When I'm less locked up, I'll probably take the beast to my old mum's garage where my tools are and then scrape off the "additional" paint to see what's really underneath... but I think I'll order a new sump anyway, since it's pretty nasty and probably needs to go, even if it doesn't have a leak. :D


Ralf S.
 
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In a ideal world you'd have the sump powder coated? Perhaps give the new one several coats of Hammerite(with a brush)
I don't know but I'd guess at 8mm holes, take out one bolt and measure it, should be ok, that will give you the hole size?

Yes.. I can't get a very definitive answer about the bolt hole sizes (albeit using the eBay "does this fit your car" doodah which isn't too reliable anyway).

Some parts "compatible with" the Fiat part number are quoted as 8mm and others are quoted as 10mm.. so I have no idea which one is telling the truth. The one Fiat part on Fleabay doesn't quote what size holes it has (since it's the Fiat part and doesn't have to, I suppose.. :D )

I'll whip one of the bolts out to be sure. I think even the 10mm holes sumps have 8mm holes on the inner (stud) holes (at the gearbox end, I presume) so I'll take one out of the front face.


Ralf S.
 
Go to you tube and type in - Fiat Grande Punto Oil Sump Pan Leaking - There's an excellent video all about it which lasts nearly 25 minutes and covers just about every question you could think of asking.

By the way, I've often meant to ask, does anyone know whether you can just post links to you tube videos willy nilly or are you likely to get into copyright and other types of trouble?
 
Jumping in here, regarding sumps, my wee three cylinder has an alloy sump so no such problems regarding rust. I'm just back from my garage after changing the oil & filter, while the car was on my ramps I also clarted the front underside with FCA50. I brushed it on all over the rusty bits. Quite a satisfying job..:)

My wee black book out & jotted down date & mileage, every six months regardless of miles, just over a thousand from the last time...:D
 
Go to you tube and type in - Fiat Grande Punto Oil Sump Pan Leaking - There's an excellent video all about it which lasts nearly 25 minutes and covers just about every question you could think of asking.

By the way, I've often meant to ask, does anyone know whether you can just post links to you tube videos willy nilly or are you likely to get into copyright and other types of trouble?
Unless your making money from the video your usually fine
 
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