Do any of you Fiat veterans know if it’s possible to download a PDF of the owner’s handbook for the new 500 Hybrid model? I’d take English or French.

Still not sure why car manufacturers treat the handbook, service schedule, and even brochures as top secret. You often need a VIN or at least a name and address to get your hands on this basic info.

I like to know about a car before buying one … maybe that’s intolerably old-fashioned?

Sorry for being grumpy.

Probably unlikely..

But you never know..

You can download the latest 500 handbooks from the Fiat eLUM site

http://aftersales.fiat.com/elum/Login.aspx

Here are some direct links

English

http://aftersales.fiat.com/eLumData...HV/00_150_500_603.85.049_EN_04_03.20_L_HV.pdf

French

http://aftersales.fiat.com/eLumData...HV/00_150_500_603.85.048_FR_04_03.20_L_HV.pdf

Pickwick said:

Here are some direct links

English

http://aftersales.fiat.com/eLumData...HV/00_150_500_603.85.049_EN_04_03.20_L_HV.pdf

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Excellent. Thanks.

So it wants new oil every 15,000 km. That’s interesting because the older engines had incredibly long oil-change intervals of 30,000 km. I would do my own oil changes but that’s still a bit more work and money.

On the plus side, the 12 V hybrid system doesn’t seem to have any particular maintenance requirements. Aux belt changed “every 240,000 km” as if that will be needed a few times.

Looking through the specs in that document, I noticed a few things:

Top speed is 167 km/h (in 5th gear, not 6th), up from the 1.2-litre model’s 160 km/h. That implies some aero, gearbox efficiency, or tyre rolling resistance improvements. (The new engine has about the same power.)

Unladen weight with tank 90% full is 980 kg, an incredible 115 kg heavier than the 1.2 8V predecessor (865 kg). I can’t believe the mild hybrid system adds anywhere near that difference, and I would have expected the new 3-cylinder engine to be lighter than the old 4-cylinder. Better sound-proofing? Crash structure improvements? Even the old 1.4-litre was only 930 kg. In fact, the Hybrid weighs the same as the old diesel! Something significant must have changed in the structure, surely.

Perhaps related to the above, total payload is down from 440 kg to 380 kg.

Towing a trailer appears to be no longer possible.

Page 148 has tyre pressures, including official authorisation to increase the pressures to 2.8 bar front / 2.6 bar rear for better fuel economy (for 14-inch and 16-inch wheels but not 15-inch wheels). That’s new and interesting.

Samuel D said:

Looking through the specs in that document, I noticed a few things:

Top speed is 167 km/h (in 5th gear, not 6th), up from the 1.2-litre model’s 160 km/h. That implies some aero, gearbox efficiency, or tyre rolling resistance improvements. (The new engine has about the same power.)

Unladen weight with tank 90% full is 980 kg, an incredible 115 kg heavier than the 1.2 8V predecessor (865 kg). I can’t believe the mild hybrid system adds anywhere near that difference, and I would have expected the new 3-cylinder engine to be lighter than the old 4-cylinder. Better sound-proofing? Crash structure improvements? Even the old 1.4-litre was only 930 kg. In fact, the Hybrid weighs the same as the old diesel! Something significant must have changed in the structure, surely.

Perhaps related to the above, total payload is down from 440 kg to 380 kg.

Towing a trailer appears to be no longer possible.

Page 148 has tyre pressures, including official authorisation to increase the pressures to 2.8 bar front / 2.6 bar rear for better fuel economy (for 14-inch and 16-inch wheels but not 15-inch wheels). That’s new and interesting.

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Higher pressure fuel pump due to direct injection hybrid system and battery
Also didn't in they add auto braking and a few other little things could account for some of the Weight
Wasn't expecting that much more to be fair

https://www.ukimediaevents.com/publication/0f5c83a9/10

Page 8, “Urban planning” (if the link doesn’t work) talks about the weight and says it isn’t any heavier than the 4-cylinder engine. Even if you allow for the usual marketing fudge factor, that doesn’t leave room for 115 kg of fat.

The new engine doesn’t use direct injection anyway.

The li-ion battery weighs nothing since it’s tiny. Fits in the space underneath the front-left seat.

Still no auto-braking either, somewhat controversially because that hurts insurance premiums and safety scores.

It’s a mystery!

Hmm some sources claim the new engine are direct injected and some claim they aren't


Dont suppose anyone has once in the flesh?

I haven’t seen one in the flesh, and I’ve seen the contradictory info you talk about, but I’m pretty sure it’s not direct injection.

This is a naturally aspirated engine, unlike the one in your diagram. I believe it’s already been used (without the hybrid stuff) in some Fiats in Brazil.

It’s hard to get a direct-injection petrol to meet Euro 6d emissions without needing a gasoline particulate filter. That’s one reason several manufacturers are reintroducing naturally aspirated engines (often with electric motor assistance for more power at low revs).

FCA got the high compression ratio (12:1) by fine-tuning everything with computer models, especially the shape of the combustion chamber and the cooling of the cylinder head by precisely adjusting the shape of the coolant galleries. That way you can avoid any tiny hotspots that would cause knock at these compression ratios. So the compression ratio isn’t proof of direct injection. The C1/108/Aygo is now up to 11.8:1 without direct injection, for example.

Are we 100% sure the previous vehicle ( in service) was that light..??

I can however see a fair weight increase for additional safety kit

IIRC the US Spec 500 was +200kg

And this hybrid is supposedly a 'world car' - same basic build for North American market

varesecrazy said:

Are we 100% sure the previous vehicle ( in service) was that light..??

I can however see a fair weight increase for additional safety kit

IIRC the US Spec 500 was +200kg

And this hybrid is supposedly a 'world car' - same basic build for North American market

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From what I've just found on Google the 1.2 was 940kg
Thinking about it 865kg does sound really low

The 865 kg figure does sound light. (A Citroën C1 is 840 kg and that’s a very light car, with a raised boot lip and other extreme measures to save weight.)

But 865 kg is all over the place including the owner handbook and recent spec sheets like this one:

https://www.fiat.fr/content/dam/fiat/fr/brochure/new/500_Catalogue.pdf

On the other hand, this Swiss price list (second-last page):

https://www.fiat.ch/content/dam/fiat/ch/pricelist/500C-FR.pdf

… gives a weight of 980 kg with a driver. Subtracting the driver weight (75 kg) gives a kerb weight of 905 kg, still a lot more than 865 kg. But even that is a lot less than the Hybrid’s 980 kg without driver. Perhaps the hybrid is actually 980 kg with a driver? FCA, like other companies, is depressingly sloppy with this sort of documentation.

Until we see more info..

There IS scope for 'exotic materials'

Shaving weight from structures: sub assemblies

But of course the 'drive motor' is an additional weight.. not featured in the 2019

Firefly weight.. no idea

But people building 'specials' shy'd away from the 875cc twinair..as it was heavier than the same output punto sporting 1242/ 90hp

varesecrazy said:

Until we see more info..

There IS scope for 'exotic materials'

Shaving weight from structures: sub assemblies

But of course the 'drive motor' is an additional weight.. not featured in the 2019

Firefly weight.. no idea

But people building 'specials' shy'd away from the 875cc twinair..as it was heavier than the same output punto sporting 1242/ 90hp

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Both 1.0 and 1.3 are supposed to be sub 100kg
Not sure if that includes the hybrid system but that should be more then another 10-15kg and probably sesame for battery

chris3234 said:

Both 1.0 and 1.3 are supposed to be sub 100kg
Not sure if that includes the hybrid system but that should be more then another 10-15kg and probably sesame for battery

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As a comparison..
I bought a 1.0 fire .. 90's Uno engine

I physically lifted that myself
So no more than 60kg

varesecrazy said:

As a conparison..
I bought a 1.0 fire .. 90's Uno engine

I physically lifted that myself
So no more than 60kg

Click to expand...

Emissions systems and safety stuff seems to be the biggest weight items these days


Hopefully carbon fibre will become cost effective sometime soon for more parts

chris3234 said:

Not sure if that includes the hybrid system but that should be more then another 10-15kg and probably sesame for battery

Click to expand...

The li-ion battery appears to be made by Samsung SDI and weighs only 4 kg:

https://www.fiat.com/content/dam/fi...00/hybrid/BSG-Lithium-battery-TestSummary.pdf

This is a tiny battery (it’s actually 148.5 Wh, not 148.5 kWh as listed on that Samsung sheet – more sloppiness.)

If it was a consumer electronics battery of this capacity, it would weigh only about 1 kg, like a laptop computer battery. But a hybrid car battery like this has to have spare capacity to operate in a reduced range of state of charge for better durability over the lifespan of the car, especially given the extremely high charge and discharge rates that would otherwise result.

I doubt the 5-horsepower belt-integrated starter generator weighs a lot more than a regular alternator and starter motor, either – certainly not 10 kg more. There are some additional sources of weight, heavy-duty cables and such, but overall this is a very light system (and cheap, but with only minor benefits, too, compared to a 48 V system).

Im my view there are a number of problems with the new hybrid (not really a hybrid)

The tiny battery is just ridiculous. most E-bikes have a much bigger battery. It starts the engine off the drive belt, rather than more directly like a starter motor on the flywheel. This will undoubtedly age the belt rapidly. Obviously the tiny motor is not providing any drive to the wheels, it is at best taking some strain off the Aux belt, lessening the resistance on the engine. When not running then its going to cause more resistance on the belt because its a much bigger "alternator" generator its having to push round.

Seemingly lots of extra weight, Much more complicated car. The car is now in its death throws if you like, its replacement has been announced and so this mild hybrid is its swan song, a way of selling a few more of the old cars before the new one arrives.

How many will fiat be selling over the next year or so especially with the lock downs all over europe and the almost certain economic crash that will follow. Its going to end up being a rare misfit, that costs a lot more money to buy and is more complex.

The other question is, is there much point in worrying about ordering one at the moment if the factory is shut down?

Factories maybe re-tooled in this time and by the time the lock down is lifted they may decided to drop the model for a newer 500 all together.

You'll probably be able to get one thats been in storage for several months?

Currently I'd either buy a normal 500 without the hybrid bits, which is as you've already noted much lighter, but also simpler, and given fiat's track recprd with MPG figures would you really believe the mild hybrid is any better than a normal 500, given the extra weight and complexity,

That’s a lot of unjustified conclusions in a few paragraphs.

Taking them in order:

Of course it’s a hybrid: an electric motor contributes to moving the car. But it’s a mild hybrid, not a Prius. That keeps the cost down.

The battery is right-sized for the application. A bigger battery would cost more, weigh more, and present a packaging problem for negligible benefit – especially in urban driving – with this low-power 12 V motor in a car that cannot move without the ICE also running. The battery is big enough to provide full motor power for each acceleration phase after a stop, improving powertrain output by some 20% at low RPM practically for free. That’s the main goal and saves fuel every time you stop and go in traffic. The system also improves the operation (smoothness, noise, reliability, electrical stability) of the stop-start system, while recovering the power needed for starts for ‘free’ too. So what would you do with a bigger battery, and where would you put it? Remember the motor is 5 horsepower and can’t reasonably be more powerful without going to a much more complex and expensive 48 V system. It’s already running at nearly 300 A!

The belt is designed for the intended use. That’s why the scheduled replacement interval is 240,000 km. More significantly, the new engine has a timing chain of indefinite lifespan, eliminating the need to replace timing belts.

There’s no reason to doubt the motor supplies power to the wheels, much less say it “obviously” doesn’t. That’s what it’s there for! Nor is there any reason to suspect it consumes more power when running in generator mode than would a regular alternator. It probably consumes less, since efficiency is the whole goal here and the designers had more freedom than those making low-cost commodity alternators.

Of course the fuel economy of the new car will be better, as shown by the figures for the WLTP cycle. The engine is smaller, so usually operates with lower pumping losses, there are just three cylinders with all the breathing and friction benefits of that arrangement, there is a taller 6th gear and closer ratios the rest of the time, the gearbox has special friction-reducing methods and lubricants, and the hybrid system significantly improves city fuel consumption on top of that.

As for the car weight, that’s not settled. The designers say the engine and new hybrid system together weigh the same as the old 4-cylinder engine on its own.