General 500 Mild Hybrid announced (2020)

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General 500 Mild Hybrid announced (2020)

Mild Hybrid .....

The belt-integrated starter motor system is mounted on the engine and recovers energy during braking and deceleration, which is then used to restart the engine in stop/start mode and to assist acceleration. It also allows the engine to switch off by shifting the gearbox into neutral at speeds below 18mph.

Thats a stop start system with a Li-po battery, it is not by any sense of the word a "hybrid" as at no point is an electric motor powering the car. (yes I know that this is what they call a mild hybrid but its a con)

The car has an electric motor in place of a normal starter and a lithium battery. When the car is coasting, the motor can be reversed to make into a generator for regenerative breaking and charging the battery, the motor is then used to more powerfully start the engine but does not power the car.

The car can also "shut down" the engine and move it out of gear when coasting. but then when coasting most engines don't use any fuel anyways so all this achieves is lowing the rolling resistance slightly, which you can achieve by pushing in the clutch.

This technology is akin to the Bluemotion tech VW have been installing since 2006, and is still miles behind a prius which has been around for 21 years now !!

I won't be buying into the "mild hybrid" nonsense its a marketing scam by manufacturers who are well behind on their tech.
 
Some mild hybrids (eg Suzuki Ignis) do use an electric motor to assist acceleration, but use a 48V system. The Autocar article says the Fiat system is 12V belt drive, and is used to assist acceleration. I don't think a 12V belt driven motor will offer much assistance!
 
In all likelihood it relieves some of the engine load, providing some power for things like the aircon compressor freeing up a few BHP.

As you say it’s a 12v belt driven motor, how much torque and power can it reasonably provide? Very little I’d suggest, And how long will the belt last under those conditions.
 
And how long will the belt last under those conditions.

Depends on the belt.

Some motorcycles use belts for the rear drive; these can transmit a surprising amount of power reliably.

That said, Fiat are not known for specifying high quality components.

But basically I'd agree with you; this could turn out to be just as much a gimmick as Fiat's S/S offering. I'd bet money that any savings it makes in fuel are more than offset by the additional cost of the system, taking into account the initial build, and in service repairs.

This isn't the future; it's a stopgap to keep the 500 alive for a few more years. Any truly future proof car will need to be capable of running on battery power alone for 20-30 miles at least.
 
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So looking at the article the motor is effectively only enough to power the aircon at 3.6kw. On a 12v system to produce 3.6kw you’ll need 300amps, the battery powering this set up is only 11Ah so in essence the battery could only power the motor for a few minutes. The system is about as affective as turning off the aircon and the added weight of a 3.6kw motor and battery just weighs the car down, this seems like just another “emissions control” con that means on paper the car has more Mpg and less CO2s but won’t make any impact on your actual fuel bill in real world use.
 
Indeed. I don't think stop/start gives me any real world saving, and I've carried out aircon on/off mpg comparisons with a few cars, again no noticable difference.
 
'Mild hybrid' is the new buzzword for a WLTP bodge which cuts benefit in kind rates for company car drivers!

BMW and Audi have recently added MHT to their fleet staple 520d and A6 2.0TDI - all it has done is knock 10g/km off the emissions and around £50 / month off company car tax.

Reality is a lot of complexity for near nil gain.
 
'Mild hybrid' is the new buzzword for a WLTP bodge which cuts benefit in kind rates for company car drivers!

BMW and Audi have recently added MHT to their fleet staple 520d and A6 2.0TDI - all it has done is knock 10g/km off the emissions and around £50 / month off company car tax.

Reality is a lot of complexity for near nil gain.

I believe that the Audi system (I don’t know about the bmw) is a 48v system with a much more powerful motor, obviously the effect is similar, but not a weak as a permanently engaged 12v starter motor and a battery smaller than a normal car battery. The 11Ah lithium battery is technically smaller than the portable battery pack I carry for charging my phone and other gadgets when on trips.
 
I believe that the Audi system (I don’t know about the bmw) is a 48v system with a much more powerful motor, obviously the effect is similar, but not a weak as a permanently engaged 12v starter motor and a battery smaller than a normal car battery. The 11Ah lithium battery is technically smaller than the portable battery pack I carry for charging my phone and other gadgets when on trips.

I'm guessing it's 48V because 12V wouldn't do anything at all in a two-tonne executive barge.
 
Depends on the belt.

This isn't the future; it's a stopgap to keep the 500 alive for a few more years. Any truly future proof car will need to be capable of running on battery power alone for 20-30 miles at least.

Don’t think it claims to be the future. As the article says, the all-electric new 500 is due this year. Pretty well documented now.
 
Only 70 hp at 6000 rpm and only 92 Nm at 3500 rpm? 0 to 60 mph in 14 seconds? And that replaces the TA? FIAT may try to fool the driver with a 6 speed transmission, but such poor performance is a disgrace!

By the way, the car configurators of most European FIAT websites now show the 1.0 mild hybrid instead of the TA. For some odd reason fiat.co.uk didn't follow this change (yet).
 
This class of car (A segment) is currently threatened in the EU, ironically because of tighter CO2 regulations.

Vauxhall/Opel dropped the Adam. VW dropped engine choices for the Up (and the Skoda and Seat versions are gone). Fiat has dropped engines now with the 500. There are others.

The new regs for 2020 (for each manufacturer’s 95% least-emitting cars) and 2021 (for all cars) require manufacturers to sell cars with an EU-wide fleet average under 95 g/km of CO2 emissions.

You’d think that would drive manufacturers to make more A segment cars, not fewer, but the industry was too smart to be tricked into that. They lobbied for exceptions to the 95 g/km limit and got lots of them. You and I might call these loopholes.

For example, there are “super credits” for zero-emissions (fully electric) cars: those will count double in the weighted average. There are also credits for adopting CO2-saving (i.e. fuel-saving) technologies that aren’t necessarily reflected in the tests. For example, accessories that consume less power but wouldn’t be turned on in the test.

There are also generous sales-volume exceptions. I think the biggest class of this exception is for manufacturers selling under 300,000 cars per year. That’s a lot of cars. I believe that would include Jaguar Land Rover, for example. In these cases, they don’t have to hit 95 g/km but more lenient targets like 25% lower than their 2007 average.

And heavier cars are allowed higher emissions, reducing the penalty of making heavier cars. The first way to save fuel is of course to make a smaller and lighter car.

As a result, luxury SUV makers won’t have any bother meeting the CO2 emissions but Fiat will, even though the Fiats average far lower CO2 emissions than the ghastly SUVs.

Consequently, Fiat is trying to pool its car fleet with Tesla’s for the purposes of compliance (another exception to the regs). What’s in it for Tesla? Millions of euros of cold hard cash from Fiat.

Sorry for the long post, but it’s against this backdrop and the new WLTP fuel-economy tests – that more closely match real-world consumption – that Fiat has released this 500 Hybrid with the naturally aspirated 2-valve engine. There’s a pressing need to improve fuel economy.

I’m interested in this car, because fuel economy is important to me too. And it seems like the 2020 Fiat 500 might be one of the last chances to buy a car with essentially analogue controls and dash, dials for the HVAC controls, etc. A simple car that might stand a chance of lasting 15 years.
 
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I maybe didn’t explain the point of all of that last post. It’s this: if you’re forced to sell (or barter) electric cars to get your mix right for the CO2 emissions, you don’t want to sell cheap petrol cars the rest of the time. Instead you want to make sure every car you sell above your emissions limit is a serious profit spinner. And throwing a load of tech at a small city car to get its own emissions down ends up making it a small, expensive car. There’s not much market for that. That’s why VW has got rid of the turbocharged VW Up engines (except for the silly GTI). Turbocharged with direct injection leads to high NOX and particulate emissions, like diesels, and then you wind up needing exhaust after-treatment. It all ends up costing a lot.

About the new 500 Hybrid, it’s already been mentioned that it’s the mildest of mild hybrids (a 12 volt, 5 horsepower Valeo starter-generator with a small 0.13 kWh battery under the left seat). It should make the stop-start system smoother at least. Minimally complex too, as far as these things go. I wonder if they’re using the same air-conditioning compressor.

More interesting is the new engine. This is a 1 litre, 3 cylinder, naturally aspirated, non-direct injection petrol with just 2 valves per cylinder (= high swirl and torque and efficiency at low revs where engines spend most of their lives in the real world), a single camshaft driven by a timing chain, continuously variable valve timing, 10 mm crankshaft offset for lower piston friction on the ‘bang’ part of the cycle when cylinder pressure is highest, and a very high compression ratio (12:1), all mated to a 6-speed gearbox with a top gear 5% longer than before. The new engine is taller so had to be mounted lower, lowering the centre of gravity by some 45 mm too. The gearbox uses a special lubricant and other friction-killing techniques.

That all sounds pretty appealing to me. The real-world fuel economy is bound to be a lot better than with the older turbocharged or bigger 4 cylinder engines. Not so much because of the hybrid (although that will definitely help in slow traffic) but because a tiny, 2-valve, high-compression engine with a load of friction-reducing tech and a 6-speed transmission, properly used, is going to be very efficient.

And because the engine is simple, it’s likely to be reliable. At least you’ll get lower bills if something goes wrong.

I have a Citroën C1 and think three-cylinder naturally aspirated petrol engines are brilliant. I’m not a teenager or an insecure man having a mid-life crisis, so I don’t give a hoot that it only has 70 horsepower. That’s enough to cruise at 130 km/h with ease.
 
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There’s a short piece on the new engine in the March 2020 issue of Engine Technology International, for anyone who might be interested. I’d link to it (it’s on page 8) if I could, but I have to wait until I have five posts in the forum.
 
This is a 1 litre, 3 cylinder, naturally aspirated, non-direct injection petrol with just 2 valves per cylinder (= high swirl and torque and efficiency at low revs where engines spend most of their lives in the real world)

High torque at low revs? No way. It produces even less torque than a TA in ECO mode! Did you ever drive a TA in ECO mode? I guess not. It is kind of self-chastisement.
 
It’s a one-litre naturally aspirated engine. There won’t be a lot of torque at any speed compared to bigger or turbocharged engines, but it will generate more torque at low revs than you might expect form the peak-power or peak-torque rating. (Which only matters because it means more power at low revs; torque in itself is irrelevant since cars have gears.)

That’s especially true if the 70 horsepower rating doesn’t include the 5 horsepower of electric assistance, although it might – I haven’t found a definitive answer to that. Even if it doesn’t, if the engine is at a speed that generates a maximum of, say, 20 horsepower, a 5 horsepower electric assist is a full 20% power increase. This will be very noticeable.

More importantly, the high compression ratio, two-valve design, basic simplicity of the engine, friction-reducing techniques in engine and gearbox, etc., will make this a very efficient Fiat 500 in the real world – probably a lot more efficient than earlier models.
 
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