I have a friend with a manual 1.2 500 and all of a sudden the car will not go into gear when the engine is running.

It will go into gear when the engine is off. She says that the pedal doesn’t feel any different.

I got them to try dipping the clutch with the engine off putting it in gear and then starting the engine. It did that fine but then couldn’t get it out of gear.

They eased their foot off the clutch and it moved forward as normal.

Any ideas? Master or Slave cylinder?

Fluid level still ok?
Leak at quick connecter?

Change the fluid, then check for leaks? both our master and slave leaked a small amount, the master could not be seen until removed.

she has sent me this picture. I’m assuming there must be a leak. I’ve told her to get some fluid, top it up and pump the pedal to get any trapped air out. Hopefully that will at least get her to the garage.

typecastboy said:

View attachment 199949she has sent me this picture. I’m assuming there must be a leak. I’ve told her to get some fluid, top it up and pump the pedal to get any trapped air out. Hopefully that will at least get her to the garage.

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Once the air is in it won't pump out so it may not work?

A knackered Slave would be not returning the pedal (it would stay on the bulkhead) so it's probably not broken... but the symptoms (since the car runs okay and no noises reported when she puts the clutch in and out) are like those of a badly adjusted clutch.

The photo looks like a low fluid level so my guess is there's air in the hydraulics. Pressing the pedal is just compressing the air rather than lifting the clutch (just like spongey brakes) so she needs to fill up the reservoir and bleed the clutch to get it back.

It's not a job you can do without any tools or a bit of mechanical knowlege... although it's probably a 10 minute job in itself.

The low fluid level is worrying though. If she doesn't have a leak from the slave cylinder (unlikely, as above) then either her brakes are on the metal or the clutch is almost worn out, to have reduced the fluid level so much. Fluid level will drop as those components wear, to take up the extra movement.

So first check for clutch circuit leaks (could be anywhere.. but usually at the clutch end) and then also check the brake pad thickness.

If it's the clutch that's on the way out that's more a case of just waiting for it to go, then getting it replaced. If the slave is an internal one (concentric) then replace that at the same time as the clutch ... less pain if it packs up just a few weeks after the clutch replacement).


Ralf S.

We had a leak where the pipe entered the slave, I replace slave and master(for ease and speed) finding the master had signs of leaking too inside the car once removed.

Thanks everyone. I haven’t heard back from her today so I’m hoping topping up might have worked.

Will update when she gets it sorted.

typecastboy said:

Thanks everyone. I haven’t heard back from her today so I’m hoping topping up might have worked.

Will update when she gets it sorted.

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For peace of mind I'd take a look at it or have someone else check it over?

John202020 said:

For peace of mind I'd take a look at it or have someone else check it over?

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Beyond my knowledge. I suggested she got it to the garage I use if topping up the fluid works.

clutch Does not appear to be disengaging, could be slave or master, don’t these use a common reservoir as the brakes ? So if leaking it should be obvious.

Another possibility is the clutch is stuck/seized or contaminated so it’s swollen.

AndyRKett said:

Don’t these use a common reservoir as the brakes ?

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No separate for clutch and brakes( brakes on the right beside the battery)

Update on this. Garage has said clutch needs replacing and possibility of the gearbox too as it’s making a bit of a noise. Worst case scenario but hopefully not both. Will update when done.

John202020 said:

No separate for clutch and brakes( brakes on the right beside the battery)
View attachment 199961
View attachment 199962

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At least on the 1.2
The 1.3 has the clutch Res right above the brake one on the right ?

typecastboy said:

Update on this. Garage has said clutch needs replacing and possibility of the gearbox too as it’s making a bit of a noise. Worst case scenario but hopefully not both. Will update when done.

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Woah! hold on there! Earlier picture you posted shows an almost empty clutch fluid reservoir. Lack of brake fluid and air in the system is going to give you exactly the symptoms you have.

Now, with out any remedial action having been taken, someone is telling you you need a whole new clutch and maybe a gearbox too! Well they might be right but I would bet on there being a leak somewhere in the hydraulic system - maybe at the quick connector, maybe a worn slave cylinder, maybe the master too. Whatever. This is what's causing your immediate problem.

I would take a systematic approach to this. Sort out the leak first. Even if master cylinder and slave both need doing, which is quite possible, these jobs are relatively simple and don't involve any major stripping out of components. Having sorted out this problem I suspect you'll end up with a working clutch. Having done this the clutch operation can be properly tested and an opinion formed as to it's condition - you can't see it, you'd need to remove the gearbox to do that so you really need to be able to drive it properly to form an opinion. If it then turns out that you need a clutch the gearbox will have to come out to do this and the slave cylinder will have to be separated from the bell housing again but only two bolts hold it on so you're not really incurring any additional costs by doing the hydraulics first.

The gearbox condition is quite another matter. Have the garage been able to road test the car? Wiggling and spinning wheels or driving the 'box with the car up on a ramp can often be miss leading and produce confusing results. I find road testing, listening to the box when idling in neutral and working the box up and down the gears allows a much more reliable diagnosis.

How old is the car and what mileage? our 1.2 Panda is a 2010 car with low 60,000 miles on it. 'Box is lovely and quiet. I just changed the gearbox oil and if you have a 'box which is only slightly noisy with some mileage on it changing the oil sometimes has almost "miraculous" effects (I myself don't like to go much over 50,000 miles which is why I have changed the Panda's oil almost as soon as we bought it last year). If you do this be very particular about using exactly the right oil - our Panda runs Petronus Tutela Transmission Technyx 75W-85 to API GL4 plus. Be very careful with transmission fluids it can be disastrous to use the wrong spec'd oil.

At the least I would be seeking a second opinion on this before committing to what is likely to be a pretty substantial financial commitment!

Hope that helps? Good luck with it all. Hope it just turns out to be a hydraulics problem.
Kind regards
Jock

They did what I suggested, top up the reservoir which allowed them to drive it so the garage. They have given worst case so hopefully it really won’t be that. Someone did suggest the fluid level could be down to a wearing out clutch. It’s a 2013 with around 45k on it.

An update on this. Not sure if I said above but after taking the car to my trusted garage they said it needed a new gearbox which they did. Only a few weeks later I have heard the car is back there with the same problem. So gearbox didn’t need replacing then presumably.

Will try to find out more when I go to garage for mot on Wednesday.

Hmm... trusty garage. Ahhhh

The problem is "gear selection".. and gear selection is *always* the clutch.... unless there's an issue with the gearbox.

A dodgy 'box can have worn selector forks that prevent the gears from being held (the car jumps out of gear) or a worn syncho' (whining while driving and difficulty changing gear without it crunching) or it can have shot bearings.. (whining on the move).

It's very rare that a knacked box does not let you engage gear at all. Throw in the loss of clutch fluid... and it's only going to be a clutch component. Otherwise, where has all the fluid gone?

I think you'll find a shagged slave... something spectacularly trivial... that bleeding the system probably temporarily resolved (maybe the O-rings got re-seated in a different position by the bleed and the leak abated for a week or two, etc.). There must have been a trace of all the fluid though... so it's "disappointing" if they touched up your missus for a new gearbox.

Ralf S.

Ralf S. said:

The problem is "gear selection".. and gear selection is *always* the clutch.... unless there's an issue with the gearbox.

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I'd say that 80% of gearchange problems on RHD cars are down to clutch hydraulics & 10% to selector cable faults. Only 10% or so are the result of an actual clutch or gearbox failure.

However (and I've said this many times before), continuing to drive when you have difficulty in changing gears can quickly lead to real clutch &/or gearbox failure.

Take heed of the warning and get it sorted ASAP; hydraulic and cable faults are much cheaper to fix than replacing the 'box.

If bleeding provides a temporary fix, change both master and slave cylinders as a pair - they'll come with all the pipework and connectors you need. The master cylinder is a known weakness, and slave cylinders can be had for peanuts. The so-called quickfit connector soon corrodes, and trying to separate them once the car is a few years old isn't worth the hassle.

This is actually someone who I sold a car to a few months ago who is also a friend, so although I’m not, I feel somewhat responsible. As far as I’m aware, there was no whining noises or previous difficulty in getting it into gear until it just wouldn’t go in when the engine was running. They filled up the fluid and got it to the garage where they told her it needed the new box which they did. Now the same thing has happened and it’s gone back to them. I’m going there in the morning for an mot so am going to dig deeper. All along I didn’t think it was the gearbox. I thought it was the master and slave. They really are a trusted garage that I have been using for some time and they knew it was one of my cars so I really don’t think they have stitched her up. Hopefully more info tomorrow.