Technical Cambelt help plaease

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Technical Cambelt help plaease

pmheathcote

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Hi all,

I have a 2014 500c 1.2 which has 25k miles on it. At a recent MOT one of the advisories was to check the timing belt history, I think because it is 5 years old.

Having checked the manual it says 8 years or 72k miles, however there is a confusing footnote which says 5 years regardless?

I called my local dealer and they said 8 years is their recommendation?

Anyone know when it should be changed?


Also, I was quoted £380 inc. for a cambelt change but a wopping £800inc. to have the waterpump changed at the same time? Is there something extremely difficult about the water pump, I thought these were fairly cheap to replace if the belt is being done at the same time.


Help appreciated please.


Thanks
 
Hi. :)

Inactivity is generally the issue with 'premature' belt failure.. due to the bearings corroding..
And becoming stiff to turn...
Increasing the load on the belt.

The 1242cc motor is VERY common now.. used in the FORD ka too. ;)

So as its now a 5 year old car..and well out of FIAT warranty.

Any competent garage should be capable.

I would anticipate @£400 for the waterpump..and belt kit.. fitted.

Somebody was recently quoted £200 labour.. sounds fair.. but location of workshop will have an effect on pricing.

P.s. worth changing the coolant too..as it is drained at this stage .. ;)

Charlie
 
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Thanks for that.

I will plan it in for the coming months.

The coolant was on the min. line but to be honest it may always have been there as I didn't check when we bought it last year.

Not sure where they get an extra £420 for adding the waterpump!

I am in Leicestershire, anyone have any recommendations?


Thanks
 
I was shocked.

I felt that £380 inc. would be reasonable if it included the waterpump, but £800 must be a mistake. Does a waterpump cost £400!

Anyone in East Mids with recommendations.
 
That IS CHEAP..

I suspect the parts are well over £100.

Belt kit 60 pump 40..
Sundries.. etc

That was a year ago but I was surprised I only gave them a ring last thing having rung round various places and they replaced the alternator belt I supplied at the same time and returned the old parts, Richard Hardie in the north east
 
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Thanks for that.

I will plan it in for the coming months.

The coolant was on the min. line but to be honest it may always have been there as I didn't check when we bought it last year.

Not sure where they get an extra £420 for adding the waterpump!

I am in Leicestershire, anyone have any recommendations?


Thanks

Keep a regular eye on your coolant level. As has been said by many on this forum these engines, in common with many modern engines, don't hold a lot of coolant (around 5 litres) so if you get a leak they drop to an unacceptable level quite quickly. If this happens the cylinder head gasket is at risk of blowing. These engines are sturdy little units but don't like low water levels.

I've done cam belts on both our present Fiats - 2010 Panda 1.2 and 2012 Punto 1.4 as well as several older Pandas we've had over the years. I always do the water pump at the same time. Once you have all the "gubbins" stripped out so you can remove the cam belt, there are only 4 bolts (actually 3 bolts and a nut I seem to remember) holding the water pump in - perhaps 5 minutes work if you are being lazy? Then you've got a wee bit of a fiddly job cleaning off the old sealant (boy does it stick) - maybe another 15 minutes if you are really concientious. You've got to drain the coolant before you start. - maybe 5 minutes? and refill and bleed it afterwards, so allow a few quid extra for antifreeze mix. This is one of the simpler cam belts I've done and any reasonably competent mechanic could probably almost do it in his sleep!

On later model engines - post 2011/12 - although it is possible to do it by the "tippex" method you really need timing tools to lock the engine up whilst doing it if you want to be sure to get it right. (there are no conventional timing marks on later engines) Also It may be necessary to do a Phonic wheel relearn (Multiecuscan/Fiat diagnostic computer needed) when you've finished to "teach" the engine ECU the cam and crankshaft sensor relative positions. If this is not done you may get away with it and you may not. If the ECU is not "happy" with what the sensor positions are, others on this forum have reported, the ECU throws a miss fire code. People report though that they see no indications that the engine is miss firing and have wasted money trying to track down this "miss fire" when all that's needed is a few minutes on the computer telling the ECU to "behave" ie. carrying out a Phonic Wheel Relearn proceedure.

So you say you don't know where they are getting the extra £420 for doing the waterpump? - well neither do I. But I might have an idea. When we bought Becky (our 2010 Panda) it was darkest winter - just into the new year last year - and, despite a fully stamped up service book there was no record of a cam belt and with 60,000 miles on the clock I was nervous. The small selling dealer wouldn't play ball with us but we liked the car so much we bought it anyway. At 72 (then) years old I didn't feel like doing it in the cold so rang round several workshops. Prices ranged from around £300 upwards. The most expensive was the big Fiat main dealer who actually, at first, looked very competitive until I said "that does include the water pump doesn't it?" "Oh no sir, we only do the pump if it needs it!" This attitude makes no sense to me. a pump which is still ok at 60,000 miles may well be finished at 80,000 long before another belt change is due so then you are going to be stripping it all out again to do just the pump. But now that belt has been on for a while so you're probably safer to put a new belt on anyway? No- Madness - Just do the whole lot in one go! In the end I just "bit the bullet" and did it myself (complete Gates kit inc water pump from Mister Auto was around the £60 to £70 pounds. When you include antifreeze, sealant and cam cover gasket etc it must have been around £100 all in). The reason I'm going into such depth about this is so you understand what's involved because the Main Dealer's price to do the pump as well almost doubled the price! More than your quote! when I really questioned how this price was arrived at I realised that they had a menu of prices, so, it was £AB for doing the cam belt on its own and £CD for doing a water pump on it's own. The fellow was just adding them together to get the total price! When I tried to reason with him I really didn't get anywhere so I gave up. That experience was what made me resolve to do it myself.
 
Wow cost us £230 at the Fiat dealer, they said it was a "fixed price service item" so ask for a price?
As Charlie said - That is CHEAP!

However, If you read my post above about my experience with our local Fiat main dealer I think you may find that they've only done the belt and tensioner? and that's not a bad price if that's the case. Couldn't be a very, very expensive auxiliary belt could it? Cynical old me! Don't suppose you've still got the receipt? if so does it detail parts, in particular a water pump?

PS OOPS! Sorry, just saw you say they replaced the aux belt you gave them at the same time. So was there a water pump in with the belt and tensioner parts they handed you back?
 
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As Charlie said - That is CHEAP!

However, If you read my post above about my experience with our local Fiat main dealer I think you may find that they've only done the belt and tensioner? and that's not a bad price if that's the case. Couldn't be a very, very expensive auxiliary belt could it? Cynical old me! Don't suppose you've still got the receipt? if so does it detail parts, in particular a water pump?

PS OOPS! Sorry, just saw you say they replaced the aux belt you gave them at the same time. So was there a water pump in with the belt and tensioner parts they handed you back?

Yes they replaced the tensioner but no not water pump, I didn't ask when taking car in, and questioned it upon collecting (too late then) they said unless it shows signs of failure they don't routinely replace it.
Ok I know this is not great but will keep an eye on it, the belt was 7 years old! But again conflicting info regards replacement.
Moral to the story don't assume parts "you" would replace others would?
And it was the alternator drive belt I gave them £5
 
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Hi I have changed the cam belt, tensioner and water pump on mine. These are usually replaced at the same time as the tensioner and pump are driven from the cam belt therefore makes sense to swap.
The pump is an easy item to swap - about 4 bolts. No gasket is used, just sealant.
Cost of a cam belt kit is approx £70 and pump £30.
In a nutshell, the garage is not been honest so go somewhere else, preferably a FIAT/Alfa specialist.
 
If that's including parts that's cheap!

Cambelt is one part ;)

In all seriousness..
A belt and tensioner swap is a simple task.

Only complications are:

You have to remove the engine mount..
( on my panda this is awkward..500 is probably worse)
2010 and on. You are SUPPOSED to slacken the cam pulley..and keep everything 'correct'

So you can go from a 1 hour and £10 in parts

To £120 in parts..taking 2 - 2.5 hours

So it is well worth checking the details of what you are paying for :)
 
Cheers everyone.

This is a Fiat dealer that is quoting me £800. I agree, they are probably just adding the cambelt and waterpump job prices as if seperate!


Still can't see why the maintenance schedule says every 8 years or 72k, yet footnote to table says 5 years regardless. Dealer is maintaining that their system says every 8 years!

It looks like brand new when I had a quick look.
 
My regular garage does cambelt for £160.
Looking at the "Fire" engines, (so the old 1 litre engines and earlier, also the 1.1, 1.2 and 8 valve 1.4) you can buy the belt on it's own, a basic belt kit which includes the tensioner, or a comprehensive kit with both tensioner and water pump. A big name, good quality, belt on it's own can be had for about £8 to £10, maybe £15 max. At the other end of the spectrum a kit including tensioner and pump for a late model engine with the "automatic" (spring loaded) tensioner can be bought around the £75 to £90 mark. If you have the earlier engine with the fixed tensioner it's about £20 cheaper. The Gates kit for our Panda, with auto tensioner was about £65 from Mr Auto last year. Same belt for the Punto.

Before I did the belts on our own Panda and my boy's Punto last year, I became obsessed with trying to find out which of these engines were "interference" and which were not. (interference being the ones which suffer valve to piston contact if the belt fails - or jumps a few teeth - From all the info I was able to gain, from a wide variety of sources, earlier engines, (I think engine No 2533527 and earlier? - info found in my Haynes manual), without the automatic tensioner, seem to be safe. I think all 1.1's are too. These earlier engines are much easier to do as they still have timing marks on the crank and camshaft sprockets (cam sprocket being keyed to the cam itself) so you don't need timing tools when doing a belt and you don't need to remove the cam cover to install the cam locking tool. This knocks a load of time and hassle off the job so £160 (especially without a pump) would seem doable.

Then there are the Evo 2 engines (our 2010 1.2 Panda dynamic eco is one - I think this engine version appeared around 2009?) which had the auto tensioner and "free" cam sprocket. The cam sprocket on these is not keyed to the cam and spins freely if it's securing bolt is slackened. These engines do not have the VVT cam pulley of the later Euro 5 engines (introduced around 2011 with the Panda "my life"?) though so can be confused with the pre Evo 2 engines as both have similar looking cast pulleys. These Evo 2 engines need timing tools to do a belt (although, if you are experienced and know what you are doing you can do it by making your own marks). Evo 2 and later VVT engines need the cam cover removed to fit timing tools so I doubt if £160 would be reasonable. I would expect it to be nearer the £250 to £300 mark if it's being done "properly".

As far as I've been able to ascertain all 1.1 engines and 1.2's up to late 2010/early 2011 (when they changed the 1.2 to Euro 5 spec.) were non interference. What you can be sure of is that if you have a VVT cam pulley your engine is going to be interference. Also, I think that if you take your belt cover off and see a solid (not spring loaded "auto" type) tensioner then you are going to find timing marks on the pulleys and you won't need a timing tool kit (mine cost £40 on ebay). Being as how our Panda is a 1.2 that's the engine I know best and so, relative to the 1.2, The Euro 4 engine with 60hp and solid cast cam pulley is non interference whilst the Euro 5 engine with 69hp and VVT cam pulley is interference so will likely suffer catastrophic damage if the timing "jumps" or belt breaks.

I think all this info is correct - please feel free to correct anything folks - There is a lot of confusion. Even at the main dealer I found one man saying one thing whilst another held a different opinion!

Anyway, hope this is useful. Don't rely on it as absolute "gospel" though, it's only what other people have told me! better to be "safe than sorry" if in any doubt.

By the way, I would be very nervous about 8 years/72,000 miles. I did my boy's Punto at 6 years/circa 45,000 miles. The Panda was 8 years with 60,000 miles on the clock when I bought her. There was no record of the belt being done and the dealer wouldn't play ball. I changed it soon after purchase and it did look "well used" with water pump bearings a bit "gritty" when you spun the pulley. I think the pump bearings were in the early stages of failure. The Punto looked much better and would probably have gone maybe another year? Then again, How lucky do I feel? As I do these jobs myself so have only the parts to buy and taking into consideration Fiat's 5 year advice guidelines, We - my son and I - have decided that 4years/48,000 miles will be our "trigger point" so as soon as is convenient after that yardstick is passed we'll do it.
 
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Scroll down this page for further 500 cambelt replacement guidance.
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/h...ohns-motoring-agony-column-08-09-2018-part-2/
Cambelt and waterpump kit from Shop4parts is £74+vat. Wise to fit a new aux belt at the same time for about £10. I'd have thought any decent independent garage could fit them for less than £200.
I certainly wouldn't let it go for more than 5 years on any car.
 
Thanks for all the help.

It was a mistake, actually cost for cambelt and water pump is £480 including VAT which doesn't sound too bad?


Thanks
 
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