General Whats next .......Leaking Drive Shaft Oil Seal !

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General Whats next .......Leaking Drive Shaft Oil Seal !

TTR

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Eh up all.

HNY.

Well having fixed the door handle, thermostat housing leak, none working fan the and over the holidays the alternator belt the little $!3s decided to start to weep from the front driveshaft (gearbox side) output shaft.:bang:

On the basis its just a weep and i suspect its a seal rather than anything major can anyone give me a step by step to dismantling and replacing.

From what i can gather its relativley simple.....!!!!!!!!!!!! heard that before.

Wheel off
Drain gearbox ( undo fill plug first)
Hub nut off
Disconnect from suspension arm
Push stub axle out from hub

Now the next bits got me - is the shaft held in place by some kind of circlip that you pull/lever/bray out so its a push fit ?

Not keen on this bit from what ive read as it looks a little hit and miss as to how exactly you get it out.

Next question is how many seal in the housing, i assume its just a push fit one sitting in a recess in the gearbox housing and then the output shaft slips through it ?

As always any help greatly appreciated.

This little motors going to be the death of me......or im going to get rid of the daughter it might be cheaper (y):)
 
typecastboy

ehup- nah not giving up yet, its cost my daughter very little thus far as ive done all the fixes and all the stuff thats gone was on the list i printed from here prior to buying it so knew it was likely (y)

Most expense was stat housing, the cheap one on first was clearly fubar as once febi was fitted the fan kicked in so fixed both problems for £35.00. Handle hinge was £8.00 and aux belt £15.00 so not bad thus far.

Hopefully the seal will be low parts costs its just the fitting tips i need - not keen on this fix but ill give it a go .....with help from on here .

Cheers
 
I've not done this fix on a 500 before, but have done it on a Peugeot 106 and Ford Fiesta. In both instances it was very much as you describe and was a surprisingly simple fix. You can remove the old seal carefully with a screwdriver. Make sure you apply oil to the surfaces of the new seal before fitting and that you fit it squarely. Others may be able to advise whether there is any retaining device on the 500, there wasn't on either of my cars, they were just a push fit.
 
There's a retaining clip on the splines, gearbox end
You'll need to pull, knock or lever the shaft out of the gearbox.

Some come out easy, others don't.
If you're levering out with a pry bar, be careful of damaging the gearbox casing.
Often you can get on the edge of the spider bearing casing with a block of wood and knock them out with a swift wack with a mallet.

You might be able to save a few steps if you remove the brake caliper, break away the strut from the hub and split the bottom ball joint, this will save you undoing the hub nut.

A couple of axle stands set at the right height can be used to rest the shaft on while you try and split it from the gearbox.

Remove the old seal as described.

To fit the new, use a large socket that fits the outer edge of the new seal and tap it gently in place.
Note which way it fits, it's very common that seals get fitted the wrong way!
 
The circlip (if one is still there) on the driveshaft is a snap-ring so it needs a smart tap to knock it out.

The new bearing should just fit into a recess. The biggest ball-ache by far is getting it in squarely. The beast will likely have a metal sheath around it (and maybe over it's face) and if this is not 101% precisely the right size, it'll be unruly and won't go neatly into the recess.

The sheath is usually aluminium though so get yourself some medium grit emery paper and then offer the seal up to reveal any "high" spots (out of rounds) on the casing... then sand it a bit in that area.

If the sheath has some blue sealant around it and you've just rubbed it off, give it a smear of sealant before you finally tap it home. Use an old socket around the metal rim of the seal. Don't whack the rubber part or any casing over the rubber part.

Other advice, don't just buy one seal, buy two. If you inadvertently knacker one by belting it too hard you'll have a spare.. :D


Ralf S.
 
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As long as the shaft is free to move outwards, the whole thing should 'pop' out of the diff easily. However, when I did the other side of the Panda, it fought back, refusing to move. On the third attempt it almost fell out, so just swear a little and keep trying gently.

The old seal can be useful as a drift to replace the new one, as it fits the diameter quite accurately.

Less usual for this one to leak. Check above first. Sometimes a leak from the gearchange mechanism will drip onto the shaft and appear to be this seal leaking. The seal on the engine side is more likely to leak, as it is directly above the exhaust on the Panda, so gets cooked. The exhaust nicely gets in the way, to inhibit shaft removal, and seal replacement. That side needed lots of swearing.
 
It's all been said above so very little to add but I did notice the seals for my boy's Punto were handed. Different part numbers for N/S and O/S! I couldn't see it at first but careful examination revealed that, if you look carefully at the inner "lip" of the seal it has a subtle molded in "scroll" effect. It runs clockwise on one and anticlockwise on the other. The idea, I presume, being that it helps to "wind" any leaking oil back into the box like the old scroll type crankshaft seals of years gone by - so be careful to fit the correct seal to the correct side otherwise you may find it encourages the oil out past the seal rather than returning it to the box internals!

PS I bought actual Fiat seals from the main agent. It's possible, I suppose, that a generic seal may not have this feature?
 
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Goudrons

Cheers for that I know I’d read somewhere it was a circlip or snap ring of sorts and it was a bu##er to shift.

It’s looking doable for me at the moment as done a few in my past but had access to proper garage tools, will be at home on my back in the garage with a good set of kit but no pullers or multiple pry bars etc so need to be sure before I start it.

Thanks
 
All,

Thanks for the tips, seems the shaft removal is going to be the key to the job here, from reading it’s either going to slide out no issue or be a PIA:bang:

From what I can see it does have a metal plant pot type casting around it which I guess is where you lever from behind, I can see this being a right laugh(n)

I’m ok with the seal replacement done,loads in the past so know how crucial it is to take time to get it seated and oiled up right first time and drift it in slowly to avoid distortion.

Will update this thread once ive done this job or given up :cry:

Cheers all.
 
My turn! SHOCKER! ? just noticed a weeping of oil from the trans side seal .. please tell me there is NO clip to worry about….. I’ve ordered my bits I intended on tackling next week
My car…. It knows how to keep giving!
 
I was going to say, if it's the N/S one that's leaking, to check the gear change oil seal on top of the box first. I thought we had leaky driveshaft seals on both the Panda and Punto which turned out to be this seal and not the driveshaft seal. However I think you've already done that selector seal earlier? Didn't you?

As regards getting the driveshaft out of the gearbox - The end of the shaft inside the gearbox has a groove around it as does the output side of the differential into which it fits (it's a splined shaft). Sitting in this groove there's a spring ring (snap ring) which is a "snap fit" - hence the name. One set of these splines, usually the one in the differential, (but not always) has a chamfered "lead in" which, if you exert enough force on the shaft, causes the snap ring to compress and the shaft can then be withdrawn. The snap ring should come out still on the shaft.

The difficult bit can be getting the ring to compress into it's groove. Some just about fall out by themselves (that would worry me a bit and I'd probably fit a new snap ring on reassembly). However most need some "persuasion" to get them moving. This is my favourite "persuader" with a half inch square drive ratchet alongside for size comparison:

P1090814.JPG

The end of the lever goes in between the back of the inner side of the driveshaft joint and the gearbox casing. Often I find levering against a retaining bolt head works well. I would caution against levering too hard though as you might crack the gearbox casing if you get really violent (I've never done this. I think you'd have to get get pretty rough with it, but it's as well to know it is a possibility). I find a "quick jerk" works better than a sustained slowly increasing application of force. If it doesn't pop out - and it will "pop" when the hold of the ring is broken - with moderate force being applied then stop and rotate the shaft a bit (maybe a third to half a turn) and try again. If you start applying extreme force you may find that rather than compressing the ring into it's groove the splines will cut into the snap ring and jam it. If this happens you've got a real battle on your hands. So be firm, It does take a goodly "jerk" to pop it, but if it's not moving rotate the shaft and try again in a different position. I've also seen myself with 2 levers, one on each side, "rocking" the joint from side to side if I've got a tight one.

Once you've got it out have a good look at the ring. If it's at all damaged or if the shaft virtually fell out by itself (most likely because the ring has lost it's "spring") then fit a new ring. The most common damage is that the splines may have "bitten" into it as it was forced out of the final drive (differential) If you see signs of this I'd renew it because, although it might go back in just fine, if you need to later remove it again it may well jam in place.

You can also run into problems reinstalling the shaft. The outer edge of the splines in the gearbox are tapered to help compress the ring. Typically you'll find there is a short length of shaft spline which you can enter into the gearbox which lets you get the splines lined up. Then the ring comes into contact with the end of the diff gear splines and a goodly shove is needed to compress the ring into it's groove. The problem, often much worse when you've fitted a new ring, is that the ring will drop to the bottom of it's groove in the shaft so can't properly enter into the chamfered "lead in" in the diff gear. People don't understand this just thinking "Oh, it's a new ring so it'll be tight, so I'll just hit it hard with a big hammer" then they are surprised when the ring gets "transmogrified" and, perhaps, irreparable damage gets done to the splines! The "trick" is to keep the ring centralized on the shaft with some grease. Here is a clip which shows the snap ring and how to keep it centralized with some grease: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s8VZShBB5k

The "special" transmission grease is a grease which melts into the gear oil so won't tend to block up small oilways inside the gearbox like, for instance, a normal wheel bearing grease, which won't melt. If you don't want to buy this special grease then Vaseline (Petrolium jelly) will do just fine as it will melt and emulsify into the oil once the gearbox warms up.

Good luck with it Chris. Be prepared for some oil to leak out when the shaft comes out. In my experience they usually come out reasonably easily with a firm "jerk" of the lever and you'll be very unlucky if you get a "difficult" one. When reinstalling they sometimes need to be "rammed" in with some determination but I find the plunge movement in the inner joint lets you use the shaft itself a bit like an impact hammer which helps seat the ring into it's inner groove. When you think you've finished give the inner joint a good tug to make sure the snap ring is holding it in place.
regards
Jock

PS If the old ring is in good condition and the shaft was being held in properly by it I tend to just leave it be and reuse it. If you fit a new ring it has to be worked onto the shaft over the splines which, I think, tends to expand it a bit and often then makes it a bit more difficult to get it started back into the diff gear spline.
 
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I was going to say, if it's the N/S one that's leaking, to check the gear change oil seal on top of the box first. I thought we had leaky driveshaft seals on both the Panda and Punto which turned out to be this seal and not the driveshaft seal. However I think you've already done that selector seal earlier? Didn't you?

As regards getting the driveshaft out of the gearbox - The end of the shaft inside the gearbox has a groove around it as does the output side of the differential into which it fits (it's a splined shaft). Sitting in this groove there's a spring ring (snap ring) which is a "snap fit" - hence the name. One set of these splines, usually the one in the differential, (but not always) has a chamfered "lead in" which, if you exert enough force on the shaft, causes the snap ring to compress and the shaft can then be withdrawn. The snap ring should come out still on the shaft.

The difficult bit can be getting the ring to compress into it's groove. Some just about fall out by themselves (that would worry me a bit and I'd probably fit a new snap ring on reassembly). However most need some "persuasion" to get them moving. This is my favourite "persuader" with a half inch square drive ratchet alongside for size comparison:

View attachment 218460

The end of the lever goes in between the back of the inner side of the driveshaft joint and the gearbox casing. Often I find levering against a retaining bolt head works well. I would caution against levering too hard though as you might crack the gearbox casing if you get really violent (I've never done this. I think you'd have to get get pretty rough with it, but it's as well to know it is a possibility). I find a "quick jerk" works better than a sustained slowly increasing application of force. If it doesn't pop out - and it will "pop" when the hold of the ring is broken - with moderate force being applied then stop and rotate the shaft a bit (maybe a third to half a turn) and try again. If you start applying extreme force you may find that rather than compressing the ring into it's groove the splines will cut into the snap ring and jam it. If this happens you've got a real battle on your hands. So be firm, It does take a goodly "jerk" to pop it, but if it's not moving rotate the shaft and try again in a different position. I've also seen myself with 2 levers, one on each side, "rocking" the joint from side to side if I've got a tight one.

Once you've got it out have a good look at the ring. If it's at all damaged or if the shaft virtually fell out by itself (most likely because the ring has lost it's "spring") then fit a new ring. The most common damage is that the splines may have "bitten" into it as it was forced out of the final drive (differential) If you see signs of this I'd renew it because, although it might go back in just fine, if you need to later remove it again it may well jam in place.

You can also run into problems reinstalling the shaft. The outer edge of the splines in the gearbox are tapered to help compress the ring. Typically you'll find there is a short length of shaft spline which you can enter into the gearbox which lets you get the splines lined up. Then the ring comes into contact with the end of the diff gear splines and a goodly shove is needed to compress the ring into it's groove. The problem, often much worse when you've fitted a new ring, is that the ring will drop to the bottom of it's groove in the shaft so can't properly enter into the chamfered "lead in" in the diff gear. People don't understand this just thinking "Oh, it's a new ring so it'll be tight, so I'll just hit it hard with a big hammer" then they are surprised when the ring gets "transmogrified" and, perhaps, irreparable damage gets done to the splines! The "trick" is to keep the ring centralized on the shaft with some grease. Here is a clip which shows the snap ring and how to keep it centralized with some grease: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s8VZShBB5k

The "special" transmission grease is a grease which melts into the gear oil so won't tend to block up small oilways inside the gearbox like, for instance, a normal wheel bearing grease, which won't melt. If you don't want to buy this special grease then Vaseline (Petrolium jelly) will do just fine as it will melt and emulsify into the oil once the gearbox warms up.

Good luck with it Chris. Be prepared for some oil to leak out when the shaft comes out. In my experience they usually come out reasonably easily with a firm "jerk" of the lever and you'll be very unlucky if you get a "difficult" one. When reinstalling they sometimes need to be "rammed" in with some determination but I find the plunge movement in the inner joint lets you use the shaft itself a bit like an impact hammer which helps seat the ring into it's inner groove. When you think you've finished give the inner joint a good tug to make sure the snap ring is holding it in place.
regards
Jock

PS If the old ring is in good condition and the shaft was being held in properly by it I tend to just leave it be and reuse it. If you fit a new ring it has to be worked onto the shaft over the splines which, I think, tends to expand it a bit and often then makes it a bit more difficult to get it started back into the diff gear spline.
Thanks for this jock I’ll be honest this sounds a bit scary! And very technical… unless I’m just overthinking…. I’ll take a look at that link you posted and take it from there I just worry that I will bugger it up and be left with bits on the floor and the car off the road ?
Yes i did do the selector seal a while back and that seems to be ok! I had a good look around the seal in question and it’s definitely this as I can see where the oil is weeping from!
On reflection ( just re read and watched your link) I can do this ? absolute worst case I get a mobile mechanic to come and clean up my mess ??
I’m just wondering though … where would I find a spare clip? Just in case…..
 
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My turn! SHOCKER! ? just noticed a weeping of oil from the trans side seal .. please tell me there is NO clip to worry about….. I’ve ordered my bits I intended on tackling next week
My car…. It knows how to keep giving!

Jock has covered this well.

My additional thoughts.

Usual seal to leak is the RH side, because it is above the exhaust, so bakes and hardens. Exhaust gets in the way a little when trying to prise out the seal, so a little colourful language may be necessary.

You can't just hook the shaft out of the gearbox, you have to release the hub bottom joint to allow teh whole shaft to move outwards.

The shaft should just 'pop' out of the gearbox. Mine fought, resisting ever increasing amounts of force, and language. Walked away, next day, lever in, it almost fell out. Popped back in first time. It likes to tease, apparently, so don't despair if it refuses ot pop out, have a cup of tea, and return to it.
 
Jock has covered this well.

My additional thoughts.

Usual seal to leak is the RH side, because it is above the exhaust, so bakes and hardens. Exhaust gets in the way a little when trying to prise out the seal, so a little colourful language may be necessary.

You can't just hook the shaft out of the gearbox, you have to release the hub bottom joint to allow teh whole shaft to move outwards.

The shaft should just 'pop' out of the gearbox. Mine fought, resisting ever increasing amounts of force, and language. Walked away, next day, lever in, it almost fell out. Popped back in first time. It likes to tease, apparently, so don't despair if it refuses ot pop out, have a cup of tea, and return to it.
I’ll be swearing like a sailor!!!! I can tell you that already! But yes … a cup of Tea and then back on it! It’s how I worked when doing the selector pin! That was a bit of a bugger to get out ?
 
Just bought the clip (just in case) god knows if the garage fu***d it up when they had my gearbox out last year… gonna cover my bases before I even attempt this job!
I bought the tranny grease too!
 
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