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Old 05-01-2019   #91
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

The question is though, when will they invest in a new Panda/500, and will they have the brains to develop a new supermini to replace the Punto?

With regards to their other investments, as much as I love Alfa Romeos, (without doubt, they're the best looking cars available to the ((relatively!)) common man,) I do think they've invested rather too heavily in the Alfa brand: I don't know how well the latest products sell in Italy, but certainly in the UK, they've been a complete flop, and I doubt they're doing terribly well in the rest of Europe either. I feel they should've perhaps spent a bit less on the new Alfas and jeeps, and injected some much needed cash into the Fiat range: they've completely neglected their main customer base! Who knows, perhaps if they'd invested in a new Punto a few years ago, they might be shifting a few more Tipos here!
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Old 05-01-2019   #92
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

These premium SUV's target market is China.
Their market has exploded over 200% in the last 10 years and shows little sign of slowing down.
Their top seller moves more the half a million a year. Their 10th best seller moves a third of a million a year.

Any global car company that isn't chasing this market isn't going to launch much in the future in any smaller markets like the UK.
Our top seller moves around 90 thousand a year.


The new 500 is planned later this year, autumn I believe.
It was put back a while as I think it was due to be announced late last year, but they are keen to get it right and not have to re engineer it for the US and other markets like they did with the last one.

It already has a model number of 332 and I seem to think the new Panda will hang off this, so should be around at the same time. (model 170)

I am not sure a new Punto is coming.
There was talk of the Argo getting badged as a Punto, though since it seems Fiat aren't keen on this and will probably flog the Tipo to death over the next ten years or badge a Dodge up with a Fiat related name or stretch the 500 and add a couple of doors.
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Old 05-01-2019   #93
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Wouldn't it make sense to develop a new Panda at the same time as the new 500?! And surely if they developed a new supermini, and made sure they got it right, it could be quite lucrative? Whilst the margins might be lower, if it sells like hot cakes, that'll bring money to their pot. Bearing in mind that at 1 point, the mk1 Punto was the best selling car in Europe, they're mad to just turn their back on this segment! Plus we desperately need a good looking supermini on the market, lol!
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Old 05-01-2019   #94
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
Wouldn't it make sense to develop a new Panda at the same time as the new 500?! And surely if they developed a new supermini, and made sure they got it right, it could be quite lucrative? Whilst the margins might be lower, if it sells like hot cakes, that'll bring money to their pot. Bearing in mind that at 1 point, the mk1 Punto was the best selling car in Europe, they're mad to just turn their back on this segment! Plus we desperately need a good looking supermini on the market, lol!
You wouldnít develop both cars at the same time because that then means you need twice the amount of engineering staff for the time of the project and then when both cars are delivered then you need to make them all redundant until you start working on the facelift versions of both cars. Plus rather than risking just the sales from one car, youíre risking the sales from both cars if thereís a delay.

Not going to give away timelines on a public forum, but we delivered a new car last year, a new slightly different body variant is coming in the next few months and then after a decent period releasing another body variant.

The beauty of this is that you can overlap the old variants with new variants with less risk if thereís a delay in one or all of the projects. You can use lessons learnt on the first project on the subsequent projects as well because thereís still time to make changes to the cars coming later on.

Agree regarding the Punto, it was a real looker when it came out and they shouldnít have left the Punto to die.
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Old 06-01-2019   #95
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by Ralf S. View Post
Very interesting discussions... and I suppose that it's true that a 500 or a Panda is relatively not as "class leading" in safety 2018 than it was in 2008... but that just emphasises the flaws with NCAP.



NCAP safety is only relative. It may be true that a 500 or Panda is relatively less "safe" compared to other cars now than it was in 2008. That does not (as NCAP now insinuates) make it less "safe" in absolute terms. Imagine Usain Bolt runs 100m in 9 seconds. Next year his cousin Bosain Nuts, using a legal supplement/new medical and nutritional technology runs 100m in 8.8 seconds. NCAP says that Usain is now a back-marking slow-coach. 100m in 9s clearly is not "slow". Panda managed 3 or 4 stars when it was Usain Bolt. It is not now suddenly unsafe. NCAP should add new stars to its system rather than revisit past results when the recent/past results were otherwise impressive.



Which brings me to my second problem with NCAP;



The NCAP scores are based on the possession of passive "aids" of often dubious relevance to the number of accidents they might prevent. If NCAP was properly serious then an automatic speed limit recognition system and speed limiter would be the "must have" accessory that should be worth a star all by itself... but it isn't. iDrive and any form of in-car "entertainment" should earn a de-merit just for being fitted... but they don't.



Let's say NCAP suddenly decides that hill-holders make a difference to the few cars who have another one roll back into them every year... reducing creased bumpers at a traffic lights is a noble objective but is it really the kind of accident that makes a difference to people..? Or does hill holders just reduce the statistics? Hint; "statistics" is how NCAP earns its funding. Panda without hill-holders suddenly loses a star. A newer car built with one, gains a star. That's how it works.



I'm not necessarily biased towards Fiat (although this is a Fiat Forum, not "Safety Vest World" so guess what...? ) but for me, if there is a car that earned 5 stars and then a few years later it gets zero just because it doesn't have certain gizmo's and features added (even though the consequences of not having them are in many cases of dubious value compared to the actual saftey benefit), then that implies to me that there is a defective evaluation and/or scoring system.



We should not just blindly swallow whatever comes out of NCAP. They risk confusing the consumers by their clumsy approach. NCAP... you had 4*... but this year I give you 1*.



Ralf S.


I know nothing about NCAP but surely the score is relative to the current safety standards available, so what was deemed safe 10 years ago is now no longer that safe as things have moved on considerably and a 4* then could well be a 1* today relatively. A car that was apparently safe in 1970 by 1970 standards is certainly not considered safe today
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Old 06-01-2019   #96
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
Personally, I'm more concerned about Fiat not investing in new models full stop, rather than them not investing in electronic interferences.
Thatís what Iím talking about though. Thereís no point in putting these things into either the 500 or Panda now. For example if you were to add an automatic emergency brake on the 500 youíd need a new grille, probably a new bumper, then youíll need an ECU for it all. Youíll need some studs or some holes in the panels to mount it on. That costs tens of thousands of pounds. Does the body ecu have enough channels? Probably not so youíll need a new body ECU then, that costs money and the software for that costs even more. Then thereís the changes to the harnesses which is surpisingly costly. On top of that youíve got to test it all. That involves hand built parts which are stupidly expensive because youíre only making 10 of them rather than 10,000.

Thatís why you donít tend to get new content released unless youíve got a new platform or a facelift of that platform. Youíre unlikely to make that money back.
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Old 06-01-2019   #97
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Quote Originally Posted by Mercky View Post
I know nothing about NCAP but surely the score is relative to the current safety standards available, so what was deemed safe 10 years ago is now no longer that safe as things have moved on considerably and a 4* then could well be a 1* today relatively. A car that was apparently safe in 1970 by 1970 standards is certainly not considered safe today
Exactly. Itís pretty obvious, yet some people want to see this as some sort of EU funded anti-Fiat conspiracy.
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Old 06-01-2019   #98
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
NCAP retest cars after a time period... in the time Fiat have had the Grande Punto/Punto, VW for instance have had 3 different Polos, of course the Polo is going to do better. Ford have had 3 different Fiestas as well.. Renault 3 different Clios.

Stop blaming NCAP for retesting the dross that Fiat keep on producing.

Fiat are close to becoming a former car maker. A 0 or 1 star rating would kill the 500. They need to up their game or they will die.
The Punto was in production too long with too little update, no getting away from that, but in the time since Fiat launched the 2011 Panda, VW have had the same Up! in production. I'm pleased to see that if you delve into the VW Up! result on EuroNCAP it does say that as of January 2018 the rating has expired, but that was in January 2018 and EuroNCAP are still showing it as a 5 star car until you go into the results a little deeper and select Rating Validity. If the rating expired a year ago, why has it not been retested - the Panda's rating also expired in January 2018 and has already been retested

I'm not blaming NCAP for Fiat not updating their models, you can clearly see that from when i wrote the following above:


Quote Originally Posted by JTD_Liam View Post
Fiat have failed to update their models with the latest safety equipment and have been caught out, which is their silly fault. Considering the sales of the 500 and Panda they had no excuse not to maintain investment.
I'm blaming EuroNCAP for being misleading and having so many different ratings running side by side. I get that the tests need to change, but there's so many revisions to the tests showing on the EuroNCAP website that it's near impossible to do a comparison of two vehicles safety anymore.

Fiat absolutely do need to up their game. Their model range is largely either old, below par or both. However, according to this Auto Express article https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-c...in-the-uk-2019 Fiat Group (FCA) have produced the safest vehicles tested by NCAP in 3 of the past 8 years, with the Alfa Giulietta (2010), Fiat 500L (2012) and Jeep Cherokee (2013). Not exactly dross in the safety department, then.

Also, if Fiat were really THAT terrible, why did you buy one, and why on Earth do you still have one?!
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Old 06-01-2019   #99
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Quote Originally Posted by JTD_Liam View Post

The Punto was in production too long with too little update, no getting away from that, but in the time since Fiat launched the 2011 Panda, VW have had the same Up! in production. I'm pleased to see that if you delve into the VW Up! result on EuroNCAP it does say that as of January 2018 the rating has expired, but that was in January 2018 and EuroNCAP are still showing it as a 5 star car until you go into the results a little deeper and select Rating Validity. If the rating expired a year ago, why has it not been retested - the Panda's rating also expired in January 2018 and has already been retested

I'm not blaming NCAP for Fiat not updating their models, you can clearly see that from when i wrote the following above:




I'm blaming EuroNCAP for being misleading and having so many different ratings running side by side. I get that the tests need to change, but there's so many revisions to the tests showing on the EuroNCAP website that it's near impossible to do a comparison of two vehicles safety anymore.

Fiat absolutely do need to up their game. Their model range is largely either old, below par or both. However, according to this Auto Express article https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-c...in-the-uk-2019 Fiat Group (FCA) have produced the safest vehicles tested by NCAP in 3 of the past 8 years, with the Alfa Giulietta (2010), Fiat 500L (2012) and Jeep Cherokee (2013). Not exactly dross in the safety department, then.

Also, if Fiat were really THAT terrible, why did you buy one, and why on Earth do you still have one? Don't bother to answer that
Cripes, itís like Groundhog Day. As @jrkitching said, the 500 WAS market leading when it came out. We bought ours in 2009 when it was at the top of its game.

As for why the Up! still shows as a 5 star car, Iíd hazard a guess and say that the Up! Is probably not much longer for this world OR the replacement is imminent.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volksw...fits-and-lower
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Old 06-01-2019   #100
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
Cripes, itís like Groundhog Day. As @jrkitching said, the 500 WAS market leading when it came out. We bought ours in 2009 when it was at the top of its game.

As for why the Up! still shows as a 5 star car, Iíd hazard a guess and say that the Up! Is probably not much longer for this world OR the replacement is imminent.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volksw...fits-and-lower
I'm just a bit sick of hearing how utterly awful Fiat are, on a Fiat Forum. Yeah, they need new models and need to do more meaningful updates throughout models lifecycles but it really gets tiresome seeing people actively encourage people to buy other brands at every possible opportunity. There'll be no investment in Fiat at all if people keep doing this, as they'll disappear.

Fair comment re the 500, Fiat have milked it for all its worth, though it's testament to it that it was still selling in such decent numbers up to a couple of years ago, with only one half-decent update. It must still be relatively satisfying to own otherwise you'd have got rid, surely?

This is my issue - the Up! is showing as a 5 star car, when it's highly likely it won't be anymore. Both Up! and Panda had ratings which expired 12 months ago - the Panda has been put through the mill and been re-tested as zero stars, but the Up! gets to carry on with its out of date 5 star rating. If they're going to start re-testing cars they need to be a bit more open about how they're going about it. If they can't retest everything every 5 years for example, perhaps it'd be better to just leave everything with its original rating, rather than making certain makes/models a skapegoat.
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Old 06-01-2019   #101
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Quote Originally Posted by JTD_Liam View Post
I'm just a bit sick of hearing how utterly awful Fiat are, on a Fiat Forum. Yeah, they need new models and need to do more meaningful updates throughout models lifecycles but it really gets tiresome seeing people actively encourage people to buy other brands at every possible opportunity. There'll be no investment in Fiat at all if people keep doing this, as they'll disappear.

Fair comment re the 500, Fiat have milked it for all its worth, though it's testament to it that it was still selling in such decent numbers up to a couple of years ago, with only one half-decent update. It must still be relatively satisfying to own otherwise you'd have got rid, surely?

This is my issue - the Up! is showing as a 5 star car, when it's highly likely it won't be anymore. Both Up! and Panda had ratings which expired 12 months ago - the Panda has been put through the mill and been re-tested as zero stars, but the Up! gets to carry on with its out of date 5 star rating. If they're going to start re-testing cars they need to be a bit more open about how they're going about it. If they can't retest everything every 5 years for example, perhaps it'd be better to just leave everything with its original rating, rather than making certain makes/models a skapegoat.
Listen, I donít know exactly why the Up! Hasnít been retested, like I said, it might be that itís not long for this world or that a replacement is coming really soon so NCAP testing it would be a waste.

Why should people continue to recommend Fiat products that are no longer competitive? Why would anyone in their right mind recommend or buy a car that is so far behind the times?

Up until about the facelift I was happily recommending the 500 and Panda to people. But since then the competition really have moved forward and it really isnít the car to buy anymore. Why would I in good faith recommend a new car that is sub par compared to the other cars people could buy? This isnít just about NCAP ratings either. If I was buying that class of car now, Iíd probably grab an Up! GTI. They look great and theyíre a hoot to drive, kind of like a newer Panda 100hp.
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Old 06-01-2019   #102
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

I guess some of us are stuck in the past, I wouldn't buy a new car on principles that you would likely find ridiculous (some of which have been covered by others in this thread). Really the only reason I have the MiTo is because I'm covering so many miles commuting, so it made sense to get a modern-ish diesel and one with a decent RFL was always going to be priority #1 . If I lived closer to work, I'd still be driving my 20 year old Seicento or 16 year old Mitsubishi.

I appreciate what NCAP are doing, but a lot of these systems make more sense when you take out the worst thing in a car - the human driver. While humans are still in control of these 1,000+ kg boxes going in excess of 30 mph driving should be considered a dangerous thing to do. The more safety systems get implemented, the more complacent drivers become and the more likely they are to do something stupid. Until every car on the road loses that one most dangerous element, it doesn't matter what systems are added, people will still be stupid.

This thread has gotten waaaay off of the original topic...
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Old 06-01-2019   #103
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Economy of 'safe' motoring. I'll just use AU numbers for my own convenience.

Person A buys a 'unsafe' car for $20k

Person B buys a 5 star 'as safe as possible' car for $100k

Average person keeps a car for 7 years, so maybe a 20% residual. So theoretically 7 cars over a lifetime. Median wage is around $50k average driver is licensed for 50 years.

Person A spends $112,000 on their cars.

Person B spends $560,000 on their cars.

That's a ludicrous nine years off their lives - just to be safe, and of course that's not factoring in the massive difference in running costs between the two. You could retire almost a decade early (which in incidentally significantly reduces your accident risk), or retire on a pile of cash.

Statistically, car accidents reduce your life expectancy by about 1 month (with of course no guarantee that a 'safe' car will save you), so safety tech has to be very, very cheap to make statistical sense.

As to the 500, frankly a 2007 car based on an even older platform still scoring three stars in 2018 is impressive, considering how say Suzuki only managed the same score for a brand new 2018 model.
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Old 06-01-2019   #104
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Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Although Iíd happily have them and theyíre a good thing, I suspect safety devices are now becoming more of a marketing tool, as you say, human error will always win through
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Last edited by Mercky; 06-01-2019 at 10:09.
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Old 06-01-2019   #105
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Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Anyway, back on topic, regardless of safety scores I reckon the 105 may become a sought after cult car a la the 100hp, there are schools of thought that say it was overall the best 500 inc Abarths
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