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Old 02-01-2019   #46
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Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
No, the main message to take home from the new NCAP testing is that a 2018 500 is not meaningfully safer than a 2008 500.

In 2008, the 500 was amongst the safest of the then-current cars in its class. In 2018, it no longer is.

Fiat have stood still, whilst most other marques have moved on.

Think on this: "Whatever you did that made you successful, will not suffice to keep you successful"

In 2008, you couldn't get a sniff of a discount on a 500. Today, shopping around will likely get you close to three grand off most models in the range.
What he said ^

NCAP stars are for people to compare cars to each other when new.

Would it be better for NCAP to have added stars so that the 500 stayed as a 5 star car, but something newer and better equipped would have become a 6 or 7 star car?

Regardless, what we have is a level playing field and some people seem to have an issue with it because Fiat have been extremely poor in making their cars as safe as the competition.
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Old 02-01-2019   #47
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
No, I'm not a snob. I like the Giulia because it's a genuinely good looking car inside and out, not because it has an Alfa Romeo badge on the bonnet, and if I did own an Alfa 1 day, I wouldn't consider it to be bragging material.I'm not overly bothered about perceived quality, with the exception of Seat, I don't think any manufacturers make cars with offensive interior quality. I'm never going to own a 5 series or a Volvo V70, so my comment wasn't referring to my own ownership. I merely meant that given how much it cost, the 5 series didn't strike me as being anything special, whereas the Volvo gives the impression of being a far more expensive car.
The Giulia is such a weak car styling wise. The front end is weak compared to the last 30 years of Alfas.

Again, you claim not to care about perceived quality and then you literally talk about perceived quality :facepalm:
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Old 02-01-2019   #48
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

I must admit, I don't see anything wrong with that front end styling.

And just because I'm not obsessed with the concept of perceived quality, that doesn't mean I have no interest in car interiors.
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Old 02-01-2019   #49
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
No, the main message to take home from the new NCAP testing is that a 2018 500 is not meaningfully safer than a 2008 500.

In 2008, the 500 was amongst the safest of the then-current cars in its class. In 2018, it no longer is.

Fiat have stood still, whilst most other marques have moved on.
The issue I have with current ncap rules is the major emphasis on increasingly complex electronics. Not only are they a source of potential reliability issues, they're expensive, and it pushes the price of new cars up, which in turn, makes used cars more expensive. Whilst it's relatively niche these days, there is still people who want an inexpensive runaround, hence why the Sandero, Panda Pop, and Celerio sell in the first place. By demanding that the cheapest of cars is lumbered with these expensive electrics, it's taking away the option of having a reasonably priced car.
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Old 02-01-2019   #50
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
I must admit, I don't see anything wrong with that front end styling.

And just because I'm not obsessed with the concept of perceived quality, that doesn't mean I have no interest in car interiors.
Let me say it again just so you understand.

You say you donít care about perceived quality and then proceed to say that you perceive the quality of one car to be better than that of another car.

Itís like me saying I donít like breasts and then saying ďphwoar! Look at the tits on that!Ē
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Old 02-01-2019   #51
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Ok then, let me rephrase it, so you don't get confused: put simply, the Volvo is a nicer place to be than the bmw. I don't study the chemical composition of interior plastics, or run my fingers over dashboards to decide if they're too hard or not, just some interiors look nicer than others. :|
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Old 02-01-2019   #52
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
The issue I have with current ncap rules is the major emphasis on increasingly complex electronics. Not only are they a source of potential reliability issues, they're expensive, and it pushes the price of new cars up, which in turn, makes used cars more expensive. Whilst it's relatively niche these days, there is still people who want an inexpensive runaround, hence why the Sandero, Panda Pop, and Celerio sell in the first place. By demanding that the cheapest of cars is lumbered with these expensive electrics, it's taking away the option of having a reasonably priced car.
These systems donít cost anywhere near as much as you think. AEB is probably the most expensive of the systems and itís not going to take you from a 0 star car to a 5 star car.

Fiat have seriously underinvested during Sergioís tenure and now theyíre paying the price. Why are other manufacturers able to offer this sort of technology on smaller cars and Fiat canít? Sergio carking it was probably a blessing in disguise for FCA.
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Old 02-01-2019   #53
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Be that as it may, it still costs money, and essentially results in people having to pay for stuff they don't actually want.

And I do agree with you on that 1. The Punto is a perfect example of that. In 2006, they did have a world beater, and if only they'd invested in it, they would have a class contender today, and I do think it's a colossal risk to put all their eggs in the 500s basket: as vw have found to their cost, whilst retro can be lucrative, get it wrong, and you can hemorrhage money.
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Old 02-01-2019   #54
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
Be that as it may, it still costs money, and essentially results in people having to pay for stuff they don't actually want.

And I do agree with you on that 1. The Punto is a perfect example of that. In 2006, they did have a world beater, and if only they'd invested in it, they would have a class contender today, and I do think it's a colossal risk to put all their eggs in the 500s basket: as vw have found to their cost, whilst retro can be lucrative, get it wrong, and you can hemorrhage money.
Cars are allowed to be rated with a safety pack. So you can still buy the basic version, itíll just get less stars and people will know itís not as safe. BUT people will know that with AEB and other safety systems fitted, the car will be better.

All of these systems result in fewer accidents, how anyone can dress that up as a bad thing is beyond me.
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Old 02-01-2019   #55
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

I get that even the most basic engines rely on a fair few sensors to run, but I'm just not comfortable with a car having all these things which render it undriveable if they play up, which I've heard people saying has happened.
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Old 02-01-2019   #56
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
Ok then, let me rephrase it, so you don't get confused: put simply, the Volvo is a nicer place to be than the bmw. I don't study the chemical composition of interior plastics, or run my fingers over dashboards to decide if they're too hard or not, just some interiors look nicer than others. :|
You wouldn't be saying that if you had to live with either for a long time!

The F10 5-series is impeccably built, has spot on ergonomics and iDrive is light years ahead of the junk Volvo fit. And, amazingly, if you price up an S60 against a 520d, they're not that far apart, even though the BMW has better engines and is a size up.
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Old 03-01-2019   #57
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
it's taking away the option of having a reasonably priced car.
So what value are you going to put on protecting the safety of yourself and your loved ones?

The additional cost of buying a car with properly up-to-date safety built in might seem a waste of money... ...until something bad happens. Saving a few quid on your running costs might not look like such a good idea if you're spending the rest of your life contemplating your choice from the confines of your wheelchair.

Something I learned quite late in life was that accidents always happen to someone else... ...until the day one happens to you. Ladykitching was once hit head on by a driver who was pushed into her path by an idiot pulling out of a junction without looking; if just one of the safety features built into the car hadn't worked as it should, she wouldn't be here today, and my world would have changed from colour to black & white in a second.

You only get one chance not to die. Perhaps it's no coincidence that the cheapest cars are sold in countries where life is cheap.
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Old 03-01-2019   #58
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Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
So what value are you going to put on protecting the safety of yourself and your loved ones?

The additional cost of buying a car with properly up-to-date safety built in might seem a waste of money... ...until something bad happens. Saving a few quid on your running costs might not look like such a good idea if you're spending the rest of your life contemplating your choice from the confines of your wheelchair.

Something I learned quite late in life was that accidents always happen to someone else... ...until the day one happens to you. Ladykitching was once hit head on by a driver who was pushed into her path by an idiot pulling out of a junction without looking; if just one of the safety features built into the car hadn't worked as it should, she wouldn't be here today, and my world would have changed from colour to black & white in a second.

You only get one chance not to die. Perhaps it's no coincidence that the cheapest cars are sold in countries where life is cheap.
Exactly. People always rely on just not having the accident in the first place, which is great up until the point you have an accident thatís not your fault. Thatís when itís nice to have eleventy billion airbags.

I liftshare with someone who gets a new car every 6 months. The car she had before the current one has AEB. Now once it did brake because there was a Cadbury dairy milk wrapper blowing across the road, so these systems arenít infallible, but numerous times it did also brake quicker than she couldíve reacted to someonesís stupid driving. Not that she would have had an accident, but it braked before she would have. AEB is a bloody useful thing.

I do about 26,000 miles just for work, half of that on country A roads which I say are the most dangerous types of roads AND Iím doing it when people are always in a bloody hurry. The 3 series scored 95% for adult occupant protection, so if the worst does happen at least I stand a chance. The fact that it has decent ESP with switchable traction control made driving in last winterís severe weather rather a doddle.

If you place such little value on your own life puntofan, then thatís a bit sad.
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Old 03-01-2019   #59
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
People always rely on just not having the accident in the first place, which is great up until the point you have an accident thatís not your fault. Thatís when itís nice to have eleventy billion airbags.
Even if you have an accident that is your fault, it's still nice to have eleventy billion airbags.
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Old 03-01-2019   #60
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Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
Even if you have an accident that is your fault, it's still nice to have eleventy billion airbags.
There is also that, but a remarkable proportion of the populace have the ability to just not have an accident donít you know?

Itís just mind boggling when people cling onto this cheap motoring thing as if itís the be all and end all. Even India is moving away from ďCheap is betterĒ

https://m.economictimes.com/passenge...w/64859186.cms
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