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Old 01-01-2019   #31
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
Got to ask: where did the dumb obsession with "prestige" company cars come from? As I understand, at 1 point, the company car driver would've been very happy to have been given a decent spec Mondeo or Vectra/Insignia. Where did it all go wrong?!
It started with the pay & price freeze introduced by the Heath government in 1972. Companies were losing staff to their competitors by the shedload and couldn't increase direct wages, so there was a free-for-all bonanza on perks, especially company cars. It wasn't long before the company car became inexorably linked to the status of the employee.

I interviewed one chap who turned an offer down saying he'd have loved to come and work for us, but how was he supposed to convince his wife, family & friends he'd got a better job, when he was driving around in a worse car? Another eejit actually refused a transfer to a job with 20% more pay because the Granada that came with it didn't have electric windows in the back, and his current Granada did.

I thought I'd miss the high end cars once I left the corporate life behind, but strangely it turned out to be something I never hankered after. Driving the Panda is a constant reminder of the freedom I've gained by leaving that world behind; I love it and have no wish to go back. I still can't stay in a top end hotel without reliving the pressures of those days; tbh I'm happier now in a nice family guesthouse.

But Maxi's right; the 500 comes nowhere near to offering the features and creature comforts of a modern midrange car. It still puts a smile on a lot of faces, though, and is much loved for that. If it wasn't, they'd never sell more than a handful to the diehards.
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Old 01-01-2019   #32
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Quote Originally Posted by Schumi2001 View Post
I looked at the 3 and 4 Gran Coupe, but they're cheap and nasty compared with a 5 - despite costing much the same money.
Agree somewhat, the 3 and 4 are surprisingly cheap inside for the cost. Still beats a Mundaneo or Insignia though.

Not sure I need something as big as a 5 tbh.
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Old 01-01-2019   #33
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
Nope. MUCH MUCH MUCH rather have my 3 series than a Mundaneo or a Poxhall Insignia.

Youíve obviously got some sort of chip on your shoulder about anyone driving anything nicer than a Punto, drive some better cars and maybe youíll get it then.
I'm just not a snob, that is all. I couldn't care less about the badge on the bonnet, it's the car itself I'm more interested in. Like schumi, given the choice, I'd much, much rather drive a Giulia than a 3 series, purely because I like it.
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Old 01-01-2019   #34
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by Schumi2001 View Post
I looked at the 3 and 4 Gran Coupe, but they're cheap and nasty compared with a 5 - despite costing much the same money.
I must admit, I do feel that a lot of cars sell purely on their image/reputation. I'm not bothered about "perceived quality" but my grandads' Volvo V70 feels far plusher and more expensive than the 520d he had before it.
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Old 02-01-2019   #35
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
I'm just not a snob, that is all. I couldn't care less about the badge on the bonnet, it's the car itself I'm more interested in. Like schumi, given the choice, I'd much, much rather drive a Giulia than a 3 series, purely because I like it.
So you are a snob then? Iíd consider a Giulia, but Alfís in their infinite wisdom donít make an estate, they think an suv Is a legitimate replacement for an estate. It isnít.
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Old 02-01-2019   #36
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
I must admit, I do feel that a lot of cars sell purely on their image/reputation. I'm not bothered about "perceived quality" but my grandads' Volvo V70 feels far plusher and more expensive than the 520d he had before it.
Youíre amazing. You state that youíre not interested in perceived quality and then in the same sentence talk about the perceived quality of one model over another.... Youíre doing this for a joke, right? Itís almost as if different companies target different markets, Swedish stuff has always generally been on the more comfy end at the market....
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Old 02-01-2019   #37
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

I think people tend to mix quality with perceived prestige... Granted, more expensive cars have plusher insides or more gadgets- but at the end of the day it will still have an engine and four wheels...

My brother in law has remortgaged his house but he is driving a big BMW while his 17yr daughter got a 15 plate BMW-1 series for passing her driving test... We have 9 year old battered big Volvo and a cheap little Renault- but mortgage is almost gone... Couldn't care less what the neighbours think
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Old 02-01-2019   #38
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
The NCAP rating is perfectly accurate. The 500 and Panda are a joke tbh.
No.. you're being mugged Max.

Imagine if you took a driving test 10 years ago and passed.. but suddenly the government decided that you randomly had to take another test, since the last one was 10 years ago... but this time, you now had to be able to read a number plate at 400 yards. You'd fail miserably and the DVLA would take your licence back.

That's what's happened to Panda. It did acceptably well when it was tested.. now NCAP decided that too many cars were scoring "acceptably well" so changed the test to include whether or not the car has stability control, EBD, VASC and all manner of stuff that might be useful if you need the car to wipe your arris after you've taken a dump but whose absence doesn't actually make a car "unsafe", as implied by a zero or one rating.

NCAP incidentally is funded by UK DoT and its EU equivalents. It gets funding by "constantly improving road safety" so it's not going to get much new budget if every car reaches 5 stars and UK.gov only sees that as "job done"... It will get funding if it continues to point out how many "unsafe" cars there are still out there.

Do you need an electronic cock-washer, to keep your man-tackle department fresh and itchy free (a lack of could lead to accidents don't you know...?). NCAP decided that and your car loses votes i.e. becomes UNSAFE! for not having one. That's NCAP that is.


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Old 02-01-2019   #39
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Quote Originally Posted by Ralf S. View Post
No.. you're being mugged Max.

Imagine if you took a driving test 10 years ago and passed.. but suddenly the government decided that you randomly had to take another test, since the last one was 10 years ago... but this time, you now had to be able to read a number plate at 400 yards. You'd fail miserably and the DVLA would take your licence back.

That's what's happened to Panda. It did acceptably well when it was tested.. now NCAP decided that too many cars were scoring "acceptably well" so changed the test to include whether or not the car has stability control, EBD, VASC and all manner of stuff that might be useful if you need the car to wipe your arris after you've taken a dump but whose absence doesn't actually make a car "unsafe", as implied by a zero or one rating.

NCAP incidentally is funded by UK DoT and its EU equivalents. It gets funding by "constantly improving road safety" so it's not going to get much new budget if every car reaches 5 stars and UK.gov only sees that as "job done"... It will get funding if it continues to point out how many "unsafe" cars there are still out there.

Do you need an electronic cock-washer, to keep your man-tackle department fresh and itchy free (a lack of could lead to accidents don't you know...?). NCAP decided that and your car loses votes i.e. becomes UNSAFE! for not having one. That's NCAP that is.


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Imagine being that butthurt about trying to increase safety standards over time?
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Old 02-01-2019   #40
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
Imagine being that butthurt about trying to increase safety standards over time?

I'm getting the impression you don't entirely agree with me...

I'm not butt-hurt... just calling out NCAP for their flawed methodology... so that their scores remain meaningful... in order to increase *real* rather than superficial safety standards over time.

I'm just saying that Panda got a score based on the NCAP test tthat was in force when it was tested... and now it gets a rubbish "score" because NCAP has re-tested it with a new test that the car was not capable of getting a "good" score in because the new test requirements didn't exist when it was designed and built.

Worse than that, the new tests rely on the presence of electronic aids rather than reflecting the car's passive safety which was what NCAP was originally conceived to improve. By definition, a small, cheap car built years ago when that tech' didn't even exist, is not going to have it fitted.... but the absence of said gizmo's now marks the car as "unsafe". It can't be, can it?

Worse than the worse than that, the criteria for what gizmo makes the car safe is decided by NCAP and there's an obscure correlation between what gizmo makes the "required" list and the actual road accident stats.

So, NCAP might decide that in 2019 an electronic cock-washer is mandatory because one person was injured last year whilst scratching their balls... but they ignore the 5 million seriously killed because a driver is dicking about with their iDrive instead of actually... you know.. "paying attention". Having the iDrive doesn't affect NCAP... but no cock washer means your car is the new Trabant in terms of "road safety".

I'm not buying that. NCAP needs to do better, or they won't be taken seriously... which undermines their so-earnest "road safety" message.

I'd suggest NCAP introduces a Passive safety and an Active safety score, much like they already do with the "pedestrian safety" sub-rating, rather than re-testing cars that could not have predicted what gizmo they needed to have fitted in order to pass a "safety" test years later. At the moment, the "test" is flawed and not just a little disingenuous.


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Old 02-01-2019   #41
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by Ralf S. View Post
Do you need an electronic cock-washer, to keep your man-tackle department fresh and itchy free (a lack of could lead to accidents don't you know...?).
Of course Brussels will make electronic cock-washers mandatory soon. I'm afraid that you in the UK are going to miss such indispensable legislation in the near future.
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Old 02-01-2019   #42
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Quote Originally Posted by Ralf S. View Post
I'm getting the impression you don't entirely agree with me...

I'm not butt-hurt... just calling out NCAP for their flawed methodology... so that their scores remain meaningful... in order to increase *real* rather than superficial safety standards over time.

I'm just saying that Panda got a score based on the NCAP test tthat was in force when it was tested... and now it gets a rubbish "score" because NCAP has re-tested it with a new test that the car was not capable of getting a "good" score in because the new test requirements didn't exist when it was designed and built.

Worse than that, the new tests rely on the presence of electronic aids rather than reflecting the car's passive safety which was what NCAP was originally conceived to improve. By definition, a small, cheap car built years ago when that tech' didn't even exist, is not going to have it fitted.... but the absence of said gizmo's now marks the car as "unsafe". It can't be, can it?

Worse than the worse than that, the criteria for what gizmo makes the car safe is decided by NCAP and there's an obscure correlation between what gizmo makes the "required" list and the actual road accident stats.

So, NCAP might decide that in 2019 an electronic cock-washer is mandatory because one person was injured last year whilst scratching their balls... but they ignore the 5 million seriously killed because a driver is dicking about with their iDrive instead of actually... you know.. "paying attention". Having the iDrive doesn't affect NCAP... but no cock washer means your car is the new Trabant in terms of "road safety".

I'm not buying that. NCAP needs to do better, or they won't be taken seriously... which undermines their so-earnest "road safety" message.

I'd suggest NCAP introduces a Passive safety and an Active safety score, much like they already do with the "pedestrian safety" sub-rating, rather than re-testing cars that could not have predicted what gizmo they needed to have fitted in order to pass a "safety" test years later. At the moment, the "test" is flawed and not just a little disingenuous.


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Itís almost as if NCAP already give cars scores for passive and active safety.

See the attachments. Guess which is a 3 star Kia Picanto and which is a 0 star Panda.

As someone who works for a car company, weíre well aware of what regulations cars need to adhere to so as to obtain homologation or a certain star rating with NCAP. Thereís no excuse for a Fiat getting 0 stars.
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Old 02-01-2019   #43
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Well Maxi, we are here in the FIAT 500 section of the forum, so let's look at the FIAT 500 results. The main question is: Is a 2017 FIAT 500 really unsafer than a 2007 FIAT 500?



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Old 02-01-2019   #44
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

No, the main message to take home from the new NCAP testing is that a 2018 500 is not meaningfully safer than a 2008 500.

In 2008, the 500 was amongst the safest of the then-current cars in its class. In 2018, it no longer is.

Fiat have stood still, whilst most other marques have moved on.

Think on this: "Whatever you did that made you successful, will not suffice to keep you successful"

In 2008, you couldn't get a sniff of a discount on a 500. Today, shopping around will likely get you close to three grand off most models in the range.
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Old 02-01-2019   #45
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
So you are a snob then? Iíd consider a Giulia, but Alfís in their infinite wisdom donít make an estate, they think an suv Is a legitimate replacement for an estate. It isnít.
No, I'm not a snob. I like the Giulia because it's a genuinely good looking car inside and out, not because it has an Alfa Romeo badge on the bonnet, and if I did own an Alfa 1 day, I wouldn't consider it to be bragging material.
Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
Youíre amazing. You state that youíre not interested in perceived quality and then in the same sentence talk about the perceived quality of one model over another.... Youíre doing this for a joke, right? Itís almost as if different companies target different markets, Swedish stuff has always generally been on the more comfy end at the market....
I'm not overly bothered about perceived quality, with the exception of Seat, I don't think any manufacturers make cars with offensive interior quality. I'm never going to own a 5 series or a Volvo V70, so my comment wasn't referring to my own ownership. I merely meant that given how much it cost, the 5 series didn't strike me as being anything special, whereas the Volvo gives the impression of being a far more expensive car.
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