Register Login
endrop - for all your online needs
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 14-12-2018   #1
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 4
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Sweden 
twinair oil in intercooler

I was about to fit an engine heater in the coolant hose today, so I removed the intercooler inlet hose to get more space - and got an unexpected oil shower!

The engine block front cover is leaking some oil, the idle has been poor a few times lately and the boost pressure and engine torque has had some mysterious digital dips from time to time. I performed some data logging recently and confirmed that it was the boost pressure that caused the behavior. However, it doesn't happen every time.

So, I called the local Fiat garage before and they suggested a clogged EGR valve, alternatively worn out turbo thrust bearing (axial lash). I suspect something with the crankcase ventilation. One issue is that those engines are extremely rare in Sweden, so no-one has any experience at all..

Problem: I cannot identify the EGR or any oil separator to the crankcase ventilation. Do anyone know if there is an EGR valve and where those components are located? What do they look like on this engine?

I checked the turbo with an endoscope and the impeller looks perfectly fine. I haven't managed to open the hose clamps on its intake, so I don't now if the bearings are worn, but I don't think so.

It has made 70000 km and we have had it since new.

Any other ideas?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Nr084 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-12-2018   #2
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 9,354
Thanks: 406
Blog Entries: 8
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

Money would still be on a turbo. If it is leaking oil then it will come from behind the impeller and not be visable on the front face, this can spin at up to 100,000 rpm so any oil that does get on the blades is soon flung off with force.
__________________
Maker and voice behind the YouTube channel PuntoHowTo 10k subscribers canít be wrong

And now the owner of a shiny new PuntoHowTo Drivetribe
AndyRKett is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-12-2018   #3
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 4
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Sweden 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

Good point. So, some hours later - the turbo shaft is axially 100 % solid.

Since the front/timing cover is leaking and there is oil in the intercooler and oil before the impeller half way up to the intake air filter, I assume something is causing an elevated crankcase pressure. What?

I still haven't found any EGR stuff and suspect they arrange with it internally with the valve timing. If that is the case, crankcase ventilation and piston rings remains on suspect list.

Last Christmas the clutch sun-spring fell apart, now ....
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Nr084 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-12-2018   #4
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 619
Thanks: 35
Trader Rating: 0
Netherlands 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

Quote Originally Posted by Nr084 View Post
So, I called the local Fiat garage before and they suggested a clogged EGR valve
Quote Originally Posted by Nr084 View Post
I still haven't found any EGR stuff
I wonder who does... Are you sure it's a FIAT dealer?
__________________
If I write something stupid, it's probably because English isn't my native language!
AGH1965 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-12-2018   #5
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 122
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

I accidentally pulled the bottom hose off my 6yo, Twinair's intercooler, and found a quantity of oil.
I'd say it was about 100ml, and I guessed the intercooler was acting as a catch can.
However, I'm completely clueless on this subject, so now you've got me worried.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

loserscar is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-12-2018   #6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near the M4
Posts: 19,767
Thanks: 708
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Quote Originally Posted by loserscar View Post
I accidentally pulled the bottom hose off my 6yo, Twinair's intercooler, and found a quantity of oil.
I'd say it was about 100ml, and I guessed the intercooler was acting as a catch can.
However, I'm completely clueless on this subject, so now you've got me worried.
I had this with TD.

Basic Physics..

The hot engine vapours ..pass through the EGR on their way to being re.burnt through the engines air intake.

On my TD this hot oil laden gas was fed through the intercooler (a radiator carrying air instead of water)

The oil comes out of suspension against the cold metal.. but unless you are keepimg the airflow UP.. this will just collect in the low points.


My oil laden cooler was discovered at @100k

. Symptom was excess smoke on boost..

As it would suddenly push a volume of liquid oil into the combustion chambers.


Locating EGR . LOOK ON THE PARTS FISCHE ?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by varesecrazy; 15-12-2018 at 14:25.
varesecrazy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 16-12-2018   #7
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 4
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Sweden 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

Well, that oil quantity may be what you could expect after >7 years and >70000 km's. By dad is on that track as well, considering "was that all oil you got out of the intercooler?"

It's just that my experience is that I haven't seen it on other turbo cars unless there has been some issue with the engine. But for sure, it is the lowest point, the air cools down - and the speed decreases dramatically at that point as well.

So, I will put the pieces together again and leave it on its regular service, it is time for that anyway. Then the mechanics can judge if everything is as it should, or not.



Regarding the "local Fiat garage": They are not authorized today, but have been around since early 70's and are a true institution among Italian car enthusiasts in the region . The founder drives an original Abarth 124 Spider, has worked for both Bertone and Pinninfarina in the 50's & 60's, he manufactures new body panels for Lamborghinis by hand and they have some rare Alfa Romeo prototype stuff from the 50's in their possession. But, the only TwinAir they ever seen is mine.
Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Nr084 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 19-12-2018   #8
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The land that time forgot
Posts: 2,619
Thanks: 196
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

My old JTD diesel collects a bit of oil in the intercooler and there's a catch tank to trap any oil mist that gets blown out of the crank vents.. so I think it's pretty normal.

In the old days non-turbo cars used to vent to atmosphere but then, for air quality reasons, they got changed to vent into the airbox. On a turbo I guess some oil will always by-pass the turbo impeller seals, so the manufacturer has to drain it somewhere or it would eventually gum up the turbine housing.

If you clean all the oil out of the inlet manifold, intercooler.. and all the hoses, then it will probably run better.

Also check the MAP sensor, if your car has one, and it's on the inlet manifold... since a lot of oil in the manifold can find its way into the MAP and gum it up. It should get hot enough to stay clean but it can also be overwhelmed. My old beast had an overfilled crankcase so the excess oil was being forced into the manifold. It looked like a oil tanker had run aground in there the first time I took it apart. Now I keep the oil level at 80% of MAX, to give it some extra space in the crankcase.


Ralf S.
__________________
No bullets for chaingun
Ralf S. is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 19-12-2018   #9
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The land that time forgot
Posts: 2,619
Thanks: 196
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

Quote Originally Posted by Nr084 View Post
Well, that oil quantity may be what you could expect after >7 years and >70000 km's. By dad is on that track as well, considering "was that all oil you got out of the intercooler?"

It's just that my experience is that I haven't seen it on other turbo cars unless there has been some issue with the engine. But for sure, it is the lowest point, the air cools down - and the speed decreases dramatically at that point as well.

So, I will put the pieces together again and leave it on its regular service, it is time for that anyway. Then the mechanics can judge if everything is as it should, or not.



Regarding the "local Fiat garage": They are not authorized today, but have been around since early 70's and are a true institution among Italian car enthusiasts in the region . The founder drives an original Abarth 124 Spider, has worked for both Bertone and Pinninfarina in the 50's & 60's, he manufactures new body panels for Lamborghinis by hand and they have some rare Alfa Romeo prototype stuff from the 50's in their possession. But, the only TwinAir they ever seen is mine.
The EGR valve is near the thermostat. It's about 10cm long and has very fine cooling fins on it, a bit like a motorcycle cylinder. It will have an electrical connector plug on the end.


Ralf S.
Thanks varesecrazy thanked for this post
__________________
No bullets for chaingun
Ralf S. is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 19-12-2018   #10
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Edinburgh Scotland
Posts: 1,322
Thanks: 121
Trader Rating: 0
Pugglt Auld Jock has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

I got a "heluva" fright when I disconnected the boost pipe on my 1999 Cordoba 1.9tdi when it was about 10 years old and experienced the same oil contamination problems. After extensive and lengthy investigations the only source I could find was the crankcase breather which was feeding oil vapour into the inlet side of the turbo. I tried fiddling around with a home made catch can with some success but it wasn't the whole answer. In the end, about 18 months later, after again finding oil in the pipe, I drilled a small hole (about eighth inch) in the bottom of the lowest pipework in the system because I was worried about the possibility of the engine "running away" on this oil. I ran that car for 19 years and never saw liquid oil in the intake piping again - the hole was so small I noticed no difference in performance. I never noticed any oil stains on the ground where she was parked either but I did wipe the pipes clean each year before the MOT!
Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Pugglt Auld Jock is online now Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 20-12-2018   #11
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near the M4
Posts: 19,767
Thanks: 708
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

3.0 drill.. nice diy touch
Likes Pugglt Auld Jock liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by varesecrazy; 20-12-2018 at 12:16.
varesecrazy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 20-12-2018   #12
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Edinburgh Scotland
Posts: 1,322
Thanks: 121
Trader Rating: 0
Pugglt Auld Jock has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

Quote Originally Posted by varesecrazy View Post
3.0 drill.. nice diy touch
Thanks Charlie. Afraid I'm still not "metricated" even after all these years! I can easily imagine what 2 thou, 15 thou or 25 thou feels like but have no idea what .2 or .02 mm is? Got a conversion chart pinned to the inside of my garage cabinet though so I manage.
Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Pugglt Auld Jock is online now Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 20-12-2018   #13
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near the M4
Posts: 19,767
Thanks: 708
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: twinair oil in intercooler

Did my best.. its an International forum.

Apparently in Canada ..

They have a 'Metric Thou'...!!

I cannot remember if its a 'Micron'..?

Or something a bit bigger.

Thousands of a decimetre ..anyone..!!
Likes Pugglt Auld Jock liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

varesecrazy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 21-12-2018   #14
It's always more involved
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Tynemouth
Posts: 2,629
Thanks: 92
Trader Rating: 0
John202020 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Quote Originally Posted by Pugglt Auld Jock View Post
Thanks Charlie. Afraid I'm still not "metricated" even after all these years! I can easily imagine what 2 thou, 15 thou or 25 thou feels like but have no idea what .2 or .02 mm is? Got a conversion chart pinned to the inside of my garage cabinet though so I manage.
1/8" in old terms
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

John202020 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 21-12-2018   #15
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near the M4
Posts: 19,767
Thanks: 708
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Quote Originally Posted by John202020 View Post
1/8" in old terms
Lost me there..??
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

varesecrazy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(T) Twinair intercooler typecastboy 500 7 05-04-2018 13:05
oil in intercooler hose kpark312 Tuning 6 06-10-2015 14:47
(T) Oil leak, intercooler perhaps?? nuddmann Multipla 17 23-08-2014 19:46
(G) Oil in intercooler pipe stephenbebop Sedici 2 07-01-2014 15:39
(T) Twinair engine oil ...when is an oil not the correct oil ? iangray100 500 16 06-03-2012 16:03