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Old 06-08-2018   #1
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Why Twinair never really worked


This video explains rather well why Twinair never really achieved its goals of more power AND better fuel economy.
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Old 06-08-2018   #2
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Yes, you can't have both at the same time. Interestingly, my wife bought a 1.2 500C last week, so I can compare it with my Twinair engined hatch that I sold around 18 months ago after 6 years of ownership.
Early days yet with the 1.2, but the trip showed 55mpg on the 30 mile trip back from the selling garage. Subsequent local runs have brought that down to 44. These figures are similar to those the TA would have given, perhaps a bit better in the case of the 55mpg - I had to try hard to get more than 50 from the TA.
The other thing to consider is the performance. While the 1.2 is entirely adequate, the TA has loads more mid-range torque, making overtakes much safer. We went for a 1.2 because the choice of cars available was much wider. Would we swap it for a TA? In a heartbeat!
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Old 06-08-2018   #3
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Quote Originally Posted by TrevC View Post
Yes, you can't have both at the same time. Interestingly, my wife bought a 1.2 500C last week, so I can compare it with my Twinair engined hatch that I sold around 18 months ago after 6 years of ownership.
Early days yet with the 1.2, but the trip showed 55mpg on the 30 mile trip back from the selling garage. Subsequent local runs have brought that down to 44. These figures are similar to those the TA would have given, perhaps a bit better in the case of the 55mpg - I had to try hard to get more than 50 from the TA.
The other thing to consider is the performance. While the 1.2 is entirely adequate, the TA has loads more mid-range torque, making overtakes much safer. We went for a 1.2 because the choice of cars available was much wider. Would we swap it for a TA? In a heartbeat!
The point of the video wasn’t caring the TA to a 1.2 though.

It was comparing a TA style engine to something different, to this.

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Old 06-08-2018   #4
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Frankly the gearing is too short on the Ta - and the power delivery inconsistent. So you end up driving it like you've stolen it.
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Old 06-08-2018   #5
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

You're right Maxi, I was a bit off topic in comparing available 500 engines.
I don't know if Suzuki did anything clever with the 1.6 120bhp N/A engine that was in my wife's S-Cross which she has just sold. That could achieve, on a run, over 50mpg, virtually matching the NEDC average. Not bad for a Qashqai size SUV. Performance was ok too. Needless to say, Suzuki have now replaced this engine with a 1.0 turbo, which has slightly less power but more torque. The NEDC figures have improved, but I bet the real-world figures don't. We'll see if the new WLTP tests are more relevant.
I'm not sure if that new Mazda engine is available in the UK yet. A mate of mine bought a Mazda3 a few months ago, and that has a N/A 2 litre Skyactive petrol engine. Only about 120bhp, but I think it's designed for torque. He says it goes well and sips fuel. Don't have any figures from him, but the HJ Real mpg is about 44, not bad for a 2l.
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Old 06-08-2018   #6
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by lsgraham_uk View Post
Frankly the gearing is too short on the Ta - and the power delivery inconsistent. So you end up driving it like you've stolen it.

If I'd stolen it, I'd be driving it back with an apology and my condolences.
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Old 06-08-2018   #7
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by ronmanager View Post
If I'd stolen it, I'd be driving it back with an apology and my condolences.
Oooh That's harsh! The problem I always had was pulling out turning right in a dip, so you needed to pull out sharpish but within seconds first gear was done. Its a shame it doesn't rev higher as that would have really helped the gearing those tiny piston should manage 7k
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Old 06-08-2018   #8
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quite interesting, as too, is the Mazda turbo 2.5l video that followed it(I'm a Mazda forum member too)
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Old 06-08-2018   #9
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

The only petrol engine I would achieve over 43 mpg in town driving was the Audi A1 1.4 TFSI that had that 2 cylinders on/off thing. I was really impressed by its economy. With the 1.2 I would get about 40 in town, with the TA about 39. 1.4 37.

For fuel economy, I have a diesel = ) At least then I can drive it the way I want and still get above 50 mpg
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Old 07-08-2018   #10
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Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
The only petrol engine I would achieve over 43 mpg in town driving was the Audi A1 1.4 TFSI that had that 2 cylinders on/off thing. I was really impressed by its economy. With the 1.2 I would get about 40 in town, with the TA about 39. 1.4 37.

For fuel economy, I have a diesel = ) At least then I can drive it the way I want and still get above 50 mpg

Only 50mpg?
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Old 07-08-2018   #11
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
Only 50mpg?
yes if you are full throttle all the time you get 50 mpg = )
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Old 07-08-2018   #12
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by lsgraham_uk View Post
Frankly the gearing is too short on the Ta - and the power delivery inconsistent. So you end up driving it like you've stolen it.
they do improve considerably with mileage but i know what you mean, mine is really flexible and refined now at 41K compared to even a year or two ago, it happily pootles around in high gears, mpg on current tank is showing 54 on the trip and that's with mixed urban driving (and warm weather!)
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Last edited by Mercky; 07-08-2018 at 12:19.
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Old 07-08-2018   #13
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

I had mine upto 10k then same engine again in Mito tuned to 115 bhp. Best I managed was 65.7 on motorway. Around town though around 38mpg compared to an easy 35 in the abarth.

I guess the abarth can just manage my driving speed whilst under less stress.
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Old 07-08-2018   #14
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Twin cylinder engines don't turbo easily which is why Honda claim they chose to turbo the CX500/650 (AKA ORBOT or The Gasping Maggot) because it was difficult
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/mod...00tc_turbo.htm


but to be fair it was better than the 4 cylinder bikes from Suzuki and Yamaha,only Kawasaki really made it work.
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/mod...turbo%2083.htm


and the Japanese Kei cars show it can be done with 3 or 4 cylinders
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/top...n-your-garage/
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Old 08-08-2018   #15
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

The idea of using a smaller turbo engine instead of a larger N/A 1 for better economy is a genuinely good 1. The trouble is that the manufacturers took it way too far, resulting in cars with engines that whilst capable enough of moving the car, were too overworked to give good economy. A prime example being a 1 litre, 3 cylinder turbo Mondeo. If the manufacturers had kept things sensible, then it would've been a good concept.
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