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Old 22-08-2018   #181
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Whatís really insane is asking someone to answer a question based on the data you provided then disagreeing with that answer, despite having posted the data yourself that proves the rule.

The average is even there on the page for you to see! 6.03l/100km or 46.86mpg
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Your analysis isn't insane at all!

I meant the outcome, these 44 mpg. I find such a value insane for such a car. I don't know what you need to do to reach such a poor average.

The 44 mpg also surprised me a bit, but the average shown by the website is clearly not correct. Thank you for making that clear.

However, of the 53 cars only 33 are within the 44 mpg +/- 10% range. My previous TA isn't.

Personally I wouldn't like official values that can be beaten that easy. Please let them be challenging. They should show what the car is capable of when driven by a pro who exploits the car's full potential. Otherwise you make the brainless think that they are really good drivers.
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Old 22-08-2018   #182
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
I had a 2litre 130bhp 1996 Saab 900 that would average more then 33mpg in regular use, which is a shocking comparison to a much smaller much lighter much newer Twinair engine of a 500.
.
To be fair to it..I wouldn't call this regular use in the conventional sense. I sold the aforementioned Suzuki having destroyed 3 wheel bearings, 3 sets of wish bones all 4 shocks and it did start emitting black haze on full throttle as well at 75k.

I may have grown up a lot since then..but I still find it bonkers something with so little power can use so much fuel.
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Old 22-08-2018   #183
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

In 2011 I had contact with the guy who reached the 33 mpg average shown on the website we discussed above. He sold the car rather quickly because he was dissatisfied about the fuel consumption. He said that his Audi TT used less fuel when driven similarly. When I asked about his driving style, it appeared that drove quite often 100+ mph.
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Old 22-08-2018   #184
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by StevenRB45 View Post
To be fair to it..I wouldn't call this regular use in the conventional sense. I sold the aforementioned Suzuki having destroyed 3 wheel bearings, 3 sets of wish bones all 4 shocks and it did start emitting black haze on full throttle as well at 75k.

I may have grown up a lot since then..but I still find it bonkers something with so little power can use so much fuel.
If you look back, I wasnít referring to the Suzuki (although it does sound like you murdered it) the 33mpg was your reference to your only experience of a Twinair.
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Old 22-08-2018   #185
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
If you look back, I wasnít referring to the Suzuki (although it does sound like you murdered it) the 33mpg was your reference to your only experience of a Twinair.
I got that...but I thought a better provide a bit of back ground as to the "regular use" required to get 33mpg out of a TA.
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Old 22-08-2018   #186
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post

Personally I wouldn't like official values that can be beaten that easy. Please let them be challenging. They should show what the car is capable of when driven by a pro who exploits the car's full potential. Otherwise you make the brainless think that they are really good drivers.
Well no, thatís not right at all, they should reflect what the average driver should expect to achieve.

The whole problem with the TA (and other small engine turbos) is that itís impossible in every day driving to achieve the figures they are quoting as fuel economy figures for that car.
Putting some pro in to ďexplot the carís full potentialĒ is either going to yield the same sort of results that we already have, or if thrashing the car is going to go the other way.

The tests should reflect an average driver on an average journey.
Currently they quote 67mpg for the TA where as if the average is actually only 44mpg, then owners are paying 50% more in fuel bills than they were promised by fiat when they bought the car, which goes back to the original point of this whole thread. The TA and other small engine turbos are not built for economy in the real world, they are built brilliantly to only achieve good results on a standard test.

Everyone bitches about VW and their ďdefeat deviceĒ but this is just as big a deal, if not worse as Fiat wonít be patching their software any time soon.

Everyone is now giving up on diesels because the media totally slated them Following dieselgate, and they are saying that petrol cars are now just as clean from a CO2 stand point, but thatís clearly a long way from the truth when petrol cars consistently fail to meet their supposed achievable mpg/CO2 figures.
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Old 22-08-2018   #187
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by StevenRB45 View Post
I got that...but I thought a better provide a bit of back ground as to the "regular use" required to get 33mpg out of a TA.
I was in my 20s when I had the Saab, I didnít exactly go easy on it, although it survived much better than its Suzuki counterpart, on one occasion driving me to the nearest garage 8 miles away when a brake pipe burst (brakes still worked when I got there) the only other thing that went wrong was the rear brake discs crumbled due to rust and lack of use before I bought it. A very easy fix to swap the discs over.

That was it, owned it for 4 years nothing else went wrong with it despite the constant abuse.
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Old 22-08-2018   #188
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
they should reflect what the average driver should expect to achieve.
Why? The average driver doesn't use S&S, doesn't follow the instructions from the gearshift indicator and doesn't coast in gear when possible.

Coasting in gear is one of the strengths of the TA. The friction and scavenging losses of this tiny engine are that low, that the car hardly slows down when coasting in gear. The cars behind you will probably not even notice that you are coasting. And when doing so, the gearshift indicator warns you to shift down on time before the fuel injection restarts. Using this plus S&S makes it possible to reach reasonable fuel economy in city traffic.

Every now and then I have to make a 5 mile journey with cold engine through the city. According to the tripcomputer I manage to reach 6 l/100km or less (47 mpg or more) driving the way I explained above. To be clear, that is with accelerating normally and without being a burden for other road users.

FIAT made a car with such potential. People who choose to ignore that shouldn't complain about the car but about themselves. Therefore I see no reason why official mpg figures should be representative for the average driver.
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Old 22-08-2018   #189
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Slightly off-topic, but I like to clarify something we discussed about earlier.

Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
The 44 mpg also surprised me a bit, but the average shown by the website is clearly not correct. Thank you for making that clear.
Both the average of 6.4 l/100km (44 mpg) and the one of 6.03 l/100km (47 mpg ) are correct for these 53 cars.

The average of 6.4 l/100km is what you get if you calculate the mean value of the 53 average fuel consumptions.

The average of 6.03 l/100km is what you get when you base the calculation on the all kilometers and all litres of all 53 cars. That means that the cars with more kilometers have more influence on the result than those with less kilometers.
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Old 22-08-2018   #190
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Perhaps a useful addition to how the data is presented to us would be for the testing results to add a +/-. So rather than just Ďn mpg city, n mpg distance, n mpg combinedí they could add Ďwith this engine expect up to +5% or -25% depending on driving styleí. For little turbo engines the % are likely to be as suggested, for larger non turbo engines would anticipate the + could be bigger and the - smaller. Ditto diesels. Just an idea.
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Old 22-08-2018   #191
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
I've got to ask: if that's the case, then how on earth are some cars so insanely heavy? For example, surely land rover could've designed the previous discovery so it weighed rather less than 2.7 tonnes?
Itís a big car with a big engine and thereís a need for it to be rugged. It was also based on slightly old construction technicques and materials. It will also have significantly more features than a 599 and is going to weigh a lot more. Itís just the way it works.
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Old 22-08-2018   #192
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post

Coasting in gear is one of the strengths of the TA. The friction and scavenging losses of this tiny engine are that low, that the car hardly slows down when coasting in gear. The cars behind you will probably not even notice that you are coasting. And when doing so, the gearshift indicator warns you to shift down on time before the fuel injection restarts. Using this plus S&S makes it possible to reach reasonable fuel economy in city traffic.
Coasting in gear is how learners are taught to drive in the uk, so the majority of people will drive like this (hear at least) also most people will not bother pressing buttons if it makes not real difference to their day, most people will leave stop start switched on (a prime example of this are people still driving about with rear fog lights on a week after there was any fog.)

Your opinion is largely irrelevant as the new tests, DO test the car in average use by an average driver on a real world road, they are not being driven by some hyper mile nut trying, infact the manufacturers are deliberately now trying to get their cars to perform badly, for fear that in the future the eu will keep constantly demanding ever more impossible to achieve figures.
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Old 23-08-2018   #193
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Your opinion is largely irrelevant as the new tests, DO test the car in average use by an average driver on a real world road
No, you are completely wrong. The new test that is used to determine official mpg and CO2 figures is a test on a chassis dynamometer, just like the old test was. The test cycle is called 'WLTP'. You confuse the new test with RDE testing. That kind of testing is indeed done on the road, but it only has a Ďnot to exceed limití. So it is not used for determination of any official figures. It is just an additional check to track down 'defeat devices'. More information can be found on the official EU legislation website, but this and this is better understandable.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Coasting in gear is how learners are taught to drive in the uk, so the majority of people will drive like this (hear at least)
People will coast in gear, but just the last part as they are used to do with other cars. When driving TA you can start coasting very much earlier, since the car hardly slows down compared to other cars. With the TA you can extend coating in gear by at least 200%. That is what makes the difference. Unfortunately hardly anyone recognises this capability of the TA.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
most people will not bother pressing buttons if it makes not real difference to their day, most people will leave stop start switched on
Indeed most people leave S&S switched on, but they simply use the clutch to sabotage S&S.
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Old 23-08-2018   #194
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
People will coast in gear, but just the last part as they are used to do with other cars. When driving TA you can start coasting very much earlier, since the car hardly slows down compared to other cars. With the TA you can extend coating in gear by at least 200%. That is what makes the difference. Unfortunately hardly anyone recognises this capability of the TA.

Indeed most people leave S&S switched on, but they simply use the clutch to sabotage S&S.
Iím bored of repeating myself and you making completely unfounded assumptions, we donít need to keep going round in circles, the proof is in the data you provided, everything youíve posted above is your opinion of how most people drive, Iím fairly certain Iím right in saying youíve not sat in with 53 drivers of one specific car and analysed their driving habits. It just seems like you want to continue arguing over anything you can grasp at.
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Old 23-08-2018   #195
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Re: Why Twinair never really worked

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
I’m bored of repeating myself and you making completely unfounded assumptions
Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? You continuously repeat your assumptions about legislation, although you clearly don't have a clue.

When the Dutch 500 forum still existed, I was an active member and I heard a lot from other 500 drivers about their driving style. Pros and cons of coasting in gear, using S&S and obeying the gearshift indicator were extensively discussed among TA owners. Therefore I don't think I'm making completely unfounded assumptions at all, unless the British are very different drivers.
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