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Old 05-08-2018   #106
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

A 24kW hr battery powered electric drivetrain will deliver the same amount of total energy at the wheels as about 9 litres of petrol in an ICE powered car. You'd need about a 93kw hr battery pack to have the equivalent range of a petrol 500, and that's ignoring the considerable extra weight of a battery pack of such a size.

Imagine paying almost three times the price for a petrol 500 with a 9 litre tank with a built in restrictor in the filler pipe that means it'll take you at least an hour to refuel it, and you'll see why EV's still have some way to go to be competitive in the mainstream market.

If I may extend the analogy further, there's a big plus, and a big minus. The big plus is that you can get very cheap petrol from an outside tap on the wall of your house (though it'll come out of a very small drinking straw); the big minus is that the petrol leaves a small deposit in your tank each time you fill up, slowly reducing its capacity. There's no way of removing the deposit, and a new petrol tank will cost you at least £8000.
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Old 05-08-2018   #107
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Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
A 24kW hr battery powered electric drivetrain will deliver the same amount of total energy at the wheels as about 9 litres of petrol in an ICE powered car. You'd need about a 93kw hr battery pack to have the equivalent range of a petrol 500, and that's ignoring the considerable extra weight of a battery pack of such a size.

Imagine paying almost three times the price for a petrol 500 with a 9 litre tank with a built in restrictor in the filler pipe that means it'll take you at least an hour to refuel it, and you'll see why EV's still have some way to go to be competitive in the mainstream market.

If I may extend the analogy further, there's a big plus, and a big minus. The big plus is that you can get very cheap petrol from an outside tap on the wall of your house (though it'll come out of a very small drinking straw); the big minus is that the petrol leaves a small deposit in your tank each time you fill up, slowly reducing its capacity. There's no way of removing the deposit, and a new petrol tank will cost you at least £8000.
Batteries donít degrade nearly as much as people think they do.

My iPhone is 2 years old and has spent most of itís time on charge and gets used for far too long each day and still has 90% of battery capacity.

Car batteries donít degrade nearly as much as people think they do.
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Old 05-08-2018   #108
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
A 24kW hr battery powered electric drivetrain will deliver the same amount of total energy at the wheels as about 9 litres of petrol in an ICE powered car. You'd need about a 93kw hr battery pack to have the equivalent range of a petrol 500, and that's ignoring the considerable extra weight of a battery pack of such a size.

Imagine paying almost three times the price for a petrol 500 with a 9 litre tank with a built in restrictor in the filler pipe that means it'll take you at least an hour to refuel it, and you'll see why EV's still have some way to go to be competitive in the mainstream market.

If I may extend the analogy further, there's a big plus, and a big minus. The big plus is that you can get very cheap petrol from an outside tap on the wall of your house (though it'll come out of a very small drinking straw); the big minus is that the petrol leaves a small deposit in your tank each time you fill up, slowly reducing its capacity. There's no way of removing the deposit, and a new petrol tank will cost you at least £8000.
This is all utter nonsense and the same rubbish that anti-electric car people like to recycle (and already have in this thread) over and over.

Imagine a car you never have to refuel, plug it in when you get home in an evening like you would your mobile phone or laptop and you never need to worry about visiting a pump ever again?

How about saving more than 80% on your annual fuel cost, when you charge?

What about no tailpipe emissions, that's zero harmful fumes being released outside your house or your children's school. If everyone had an electric car the air where you live would be glorious! with the most harmful fumes being from someone walking down the road with an over zelous vape doodad.

As for range, I don't know what the current range of a petrol 500 is, maybe 400 - 500 miles on a full tank? when was the last time you got in your car and drove solidly for 400 - 500 miles non-stop? even on a long journey on holiday, you'd stop to use the toilet, to get on a ferry or train if going across to Europe. you might even stay overnight in a hotel to continue the journey the next day.
Whatever the case there are plenty of opportunities to charge up for the next part of the journey.

If you have something like a fiat 500, you will rarely be doing trips of over 150 miles at a time.

I ran my diesel punto for 3 years when at university, putting a tenner in at a time which would get me about 100 or so miles, and it stood for hours at a time outside the house without going anywhere so more than ample opportunity that it could be charging, if it were electric.

It really isn't the electric car that is not ready for the mass market, its people's thinking that is not ready to accept it, as you've very much just shown.

That 400,000 miles Tesla showed something like 6% reduced battery capacity after 200k miles That's a Tesla being severely abused, supercharging to 95 - 100% every day, sometimes several times in a day. most fiat 500's will be scrapped long before reaching 200k miles. batteries will then be taken apart and the good cells used to make new batteries. Fiat like all other manufactures also have an 8 year battery waranty so if you buy a new or nearly new one, you are not likely to have to worry about replacing the battery in the time you own the car.
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Old 05-08-2018   #109
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

To get 500 miles out of a 500 you have to be pretty much driving like a granny. 400 is more realistic.
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Old 05-08-2018   #110
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
To get 500 miles out of a 500 you have to be pretty much driving like a granny. 400 is more realistic.
I managed 320 with a gallon left in the tank, not bad for the abarth. To be honest much more than that and legs need a stretch.
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Old 05-08-2018   #111
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

This just popped up on quora


My 2012 S85 started with 265 rated mile range (actually, for the first week it was at 271, but then settled down to the advertised range). It is now 5.5 years old with 80k miles, and I’ve been pretty hard on the battery. I’ve done 31 track days, where I run the drivetrain hot until it limits power, getting down to single-digits range left (or below) each time. I’ve done dozens of max-range charges for long trips, particularly when the Supercharger network wasn’t as well developed (it was a while before there were any Superchargers near me). The last time I did a max-range charge, it went to 252 miles, which would be just under 5% degradation. Most of that was in the first couple of years, and it has hardly changed since then.

Tesla batteries only balance at the top of a max-range charge (basically shunt resistors send current around fully-charged cells), and it takes a couple of tries to get it well balanced. The range from the lowest cell to the highest (visible via CAN) is within a few percent, so while I think with better balancing it could be a bit higher, I doubt more than 1–2mi.

Anyway, when I bought it I assumed it would be down 10% at 10 years, and I think it would likely be around 7–8% (I say would, since I will be trading it for an AWD performance Model 3 to get AWD, better acceleration, and Autopilot). Even if it was down 20% and had range of 210 miles, it would not significantly impact my ability to use the car - it would mean slightly longer charge times on long trips, and that’s about it.
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Old 05-08-2018   #112
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

It would be interesting to know what the comparison in fuel economy between a brand new car, and an identical car that’s covered 100,000 miles would be?

You might put the same amount of fuel in the tank each time but as bits of the engine wear and deteriorate, tyres suspension, gearbox those 200+ moving parts in an internal combustion engine will take their told on the economy.

An electric motor generally will not change in efficiency and with only a dozen or so moving parts, there is little to wear and cause on the system.

So yeah you might lose some range on an electric car, but this is not something that’s exclusive to just batteries.
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Old 05-08-2018   #113
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
It would be interesting to know what the comparison in fuel economy between a brand new car, and an identical car thatís covered 100,000 miles would be?

You might put the same amount of fuel in the tank each time but as bits of the engine wear and deteriorate, tyres suspension, gearbox those 200+ moving parts in an internal combustion engine will take their told on the economy.

An electric motor generally will not change in efficiency and with only a dozen or so moving parts, there is little to wear and cause on the system.

So yeah you might lose some range on an electric car, but this is not something thatís exclusive to just batteries.

Have a look at the car throttle youtube video on the skoda octavia, it was still doing 70mpg at 430,000
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Old 05-08-2018   #114
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by lsgraham_uk View Post
Have a look at the car throttle youtube video on the skoda octavia, it was still doing 70mpg at 430,000
I watched the series, not quite fair as the car had been remapped for economy, therefore it was getting better MPG than it was when it was new.
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Old 05-08-2018   #115
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
I watched the series, not quite fair as the car had been remapped for economy, therefore it was getting better MPG than it was when it was new.
Remapping a vw for better economy, the irony is quite funny though.
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Old 15-08-2018   #116
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

Have read several articles in the last few days which suggest the threat to the current automotive world is not so much the electric cars, but more who will be making them.

A very in depth article about James Dyson (off of dyson vacuum cleaners and hand dryers) has currently got £2Bn invested in developing an electric car which they will build themself and sell in the next few years, from the horses mouth he has moved a large chunk of his R&D work force to the project.

Obviously Tesla which we all know about, however Elon Musk is now talking about taking the company back into private ownership so he can do what he wants without having to please share holders, that will potentially mean the development of technologies that wouldn’t be cost effective normally but in Musks world of not caring about money, could prove revolutionary.

Finally Project Titan, and if you’ve not heard about it, this is Apple Inc’s internal code name for their own electric and rumoured self driving car, again the rumour mill is rife with anything Apple related but current expectations are that we could see app produce a car by 2025, and that Apple need to move away from phones and laptops due to this market reaching saturation.

Will be watching these closely, seriously massive amounts of money being invested in the technology, making the car manufacturers efforts loom amateur, Fiat definately need to catch up fast.
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Old 15-08-2018   #117
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Re: C'mon Fiat, give us an electric 500

I doubt Apple is going to make cars, making cars is a fantastic way of making sod all money. Wikipedia claims 2020, thereís no way thatís happening.

Dyson is an arrogant prick, hope it goes very badly for him.

Fiat are screwed though.
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