perelaar said:

but where does all the electro juice come from...?

Hugely oversubsidised wind generators, or coal-powered electrical plants...

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Can't say for elsewhere, but in the UK around 30% comes from renewable sources.
4% solar, 13% wind, 2% hydro and 11% biomass.

The rest comes from oil, gas and coal (45%) and nuclear (25%)

As you would probably expect the percentage from renewable sources has been steadily increasing.

What you probably don't expect is that in terms of actual power produced there hasn't really been a decrease in oil, gas, coal and nuclear.
In fact there has been a very slight increase in the past two years.

We're using more and more and so far renewables have mostly filled in the increase.

But you have to wonder how long this trend can go on?
Build more and more renewable generators or throw a few more uranium 235 logs on the fire?

I wonder what happened at half time in the world cup final when all those kettles go switched on.
Did someone turn up the wind?

IMO only having the 1.2 engine available is going to hammer new 500 sales.

Whilst it's a great engine for the bugdet-conscious (and probably the safest choice if buying secondhand and you don't like unexpected bills), it's performance lags behind most of what the competition are offering; I'm wondering how many of those who bought a new TA 500 over the past 5 years would have bought something else entirely if only the 1.2 were available.

Well, TA owners, would you still have bought a 500 if it had to be a 1.2?

perelaar said:

Just noticed the upcoming bmw 330e. Small print says "zero local emissions".
Indeed, electrical cars might not emit any particles or CO2 - but where does all the electro juice come from...?

Hugely oversubsidised wind generators, or coal-powered electrical plants...

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Few things.

Upcoming 330e? The 330e has been out for a few years now.
Local emissions are important, the A494 here in North Wales has had the speed limit lowered to try and lower levels of air pollution to acceptable levels.
No further fossil fuel plants are being built, any new power generation will be from low CO2 sources.
Even if the electricity has been generated from coal or oil, an electric vehicle still results in less CO2 than a petrol or diesel vehicle.

jrkitching said:

IMO only having the 1.2 engine available is going to hammer new 500 sales.

Whilst it's a great engine for the bugdet-conscious (and probably the safest choice if buying secondhand and you don't like unexpected bills), it's performance lags behind most of what the competition are offering; I'm wondering how many of those who bought a new TA 500 over the past 5 years would have bought something else entirely if only the 1.2 were available.

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Definitely, regardless of it being a good engine, it still doesn’t provide the desired level of performance that people want, I rather suspect that 2019 and 2020 will end up being bumper years in terms of car sales due to having full ranges available.

306maxi said:

Few things.

Upcoming 330e? The 330e has been out for a few years now.
Local emissions are important, the A494 here in North Wales has had the speed limit lowered to try and lower levels of air pollution to acceptable levels.
No further fossil fuel plants are being built, any new power generation will be from low CO2 sources.
Even if the electricity has been generated from coal or oil, an electric vehicle still results in less CO2 than a petrol or diesel vehicle.

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:Offtopic:



It's a good point and worth discussing, but if you want to debate the merits of electric cars, please start a separate thread.

In fact it's such a good point, I'll do it for you.

Please carry on the discussion about all things electric here.

306maxi said:

...I rather suspect that 2019 and 2020 will end up being bumper years in terms of car sales due to having full ranges available.

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I'd agree; right now just doesn't feel like a good time to be buying a new car.

jrkitching said:

Well, TA owners, would you still have bought a 500 if it had to be a 1.2?

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Probably, but glad I dident! (Euro 6 and all that). If I was buying another today definitely not but I would buy another TA for sure. The majority of 500's sold are 1.2's, certainly over here they are anyway, I'd say here about 5% max are TA's & MJ's, you havent been able to buy a TA here for about 2 years as they discontinued them for some reason - lack of demand I guess, so if I was changing the TA I'm not sure what it would be right now. A 500e sounds attractive and would suit the car well however predictably they will be expensive and a lot of buyers of EV's (myself included) are hesitant to opt in until battery tech has been further developed to a point where it has plateaued to a degree and is more affordable, nobody wants to invest in obsolescence. It will be interesting to see the residuals on the likes of Teslas in 3 years. The ICE has been powering cars for over 100 years and still works on the same basic principles although it is somewhat more refined!

jrkitching said:

Well, TA owners, would you still have bought a 500 if it had to be a 1.2?

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Personally, no. The TA gives much more than the modest power difference suggests. Mrs Bee would have bought the 1.2 but, given how much she enjoys surprising Audi drivers with the TA's pickup, I think she would recognise that it would be an even greater compromise of style over substance.

More of an issue is the (local) dealership network which continues to set low standards and then fail to meet them.

Incidentally, the Fiat configurator still shows the TA as available in the Panda, which seems strange if it's a WLTP issue.

gazz_bee said:

Personally, no. The TA gives much more than the modest power difference suggests. Mrs Bee would have bought the 1.2 but, given how much she enjoys surprising Audi drivers with the TA's pickup, I think she would recognise that it would be an even greater compromise of style over substance.

More of an issue is the (local) dealership network which continues to set low standards and then fail to meet them.

Incidentally, the Fiat configurator still shows the TA as available in the Panda, which seems strange if it's a WLTP issue.

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Engines have to be homologated per model

306maxi said:

Engines have to be homologated per model

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I presume in the past if the panda and the 500 had the same engine, gearbox wheels and drive train, and they are all tested on the same rolling road, there would have been almost no difference in the figures when tested, maybe a slight increase in weights, increasing rolling resistance but they could probably in the past, justified things with a bit of maths, there as now they need to test literally everything in real world situations.

gazz_bee said:

Incidentally, the Fiat configurator still shows the TA as available in the Panda, which seems strange if it's a WLTP issue.

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I noticed that, seems odd that Fiats best selling model is the one to miss out on the TA engine just because of a test.

There's got to be more to it than WLTP.

I did, like a lot of others, read about a 48V mild hybrid system for the 500 and that it wasn't likely the Panda would get anything but straight petrol due to it "budget" status.

Perhaps this hybrid system is on it's way sooner rather than later and dropping the TA is part of this plan.

Is the Collezione a run out model?

Goudrons said:

I noticed that, seems odd that Fiats best selling model is the one to miss out on the TA engine just because of a test.

There's got to be more to it than WLTP.

I did, like a lot of others, read about a 48V mild hybrid system for the 500 and that it wasn't likely the Panda would get anything but straight petrol due to it "budget" status.

Perhaps this hybrid system is on it's way sooner rather than later and dropping the TA is part of this plan.

Is the Collezione a run out model?

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It would make sense to have the twinair with the hybrid system to me now that would make a good car off the line especially if you can use both electric power and the engine for quick starts

The cost of integrating a 48v system into what is now a 15 year old platform would be extortionately costly and for what? The last few years of the 500’s life?

Likely come with the redesign on the platform must be overdue for one

I think the real question now is whether Fiat have temporarily suspended taking orders for the TA whilst they sort out the WLTP stuff, or whether this engine option is gone for good.

No, new platform.
It's already underway and it's called Project 322.

The next 500 will be one car, worldwide rather than a European model converted for other markets.

Space for production in Toluca, Mexico is already being tooled up as they're finish producing the US 500 already.
It now looks like the Panda is going back to Tychy as it only really sells in Europe.

Only premium cars like Masers, Fezers and Alfas will be built in Italy, so the new 500 could be built outside of Europe altogether.

Is the current 500 still? lighter than Panda, as the 500 1.2 has had better 0-60 figure claimed. Assume the 500 will reach 50 in 2nd, or maybe more. Never owned a 500 but followed one by Kendal hospital and it didn't hold me up at all in TA 4x4 Panda. Plenty 10 months old at car supermarkets for not much. And quite generous spec on the Lounge (Panoramic roof, metallic paint, air con, DAB with 6 speakers, cruise, reversing sensors). It's tempting.

perelaar said:

Just noticed the upcoming bmw 330e. Small print says "zero local emissions".

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Not quite a true statement for potential buyers living near, or working at a coal or gas power plant.:devil:

I’m not convinced on the ‘new’ 500 claims.

For one fiat have made no announcements about any replacement cars, and generally they are quite good at doing so well in advance, there have been no sightings of any “new” models of fiat 500 and currently fiat have pulled out of things like the Paris motor show stating they have no new announcements to make and so there is little point in attending motor shows. The 500x was announced and shown over a year before it became available.

They announced the Tipo well in advance it’s just no one cared enough to notice. Don’t hold your breath for any new cars from fiat for the time being maybe some facelifts here and there, add some more Bluetooth to the current range, people like bluetooths and some more
Steering wheel buttons

The death of the ceo has probably caused some disruption also.