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Old 21-07-2017   #76
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Re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
So how does the Tesla compare? Assuming gas powered generation the electricity generated to charge a Tesla comes out at 0.16 kg per mile (based on 500g per kWh and no allowance for distribution, or charging lossses). Thus 60000 miles in a Tesla is 9.6 tons About half that of the Croma. some of the production will be coal and some renewables but 500g/kWh is a good average from https://www.parliament.uk/documents/...generation.pdf.
So the Croma's not that bad.
I decided to check your 19t figure
https://people.exeter.ac.uk/TWDavies...om%20fuels.htm says 2.68 kg/litre for Diesel, that's 12.17 per UK gallon. Current Croma cnsumption over 1500miles is 45MPG (mostly on commute to work) so thats 0.27kg per mile so more like 16.2 tons for 60,000 miles. Interstingly the Exeter university paper gives 43kg/kWh for "Grid Electricity" which would make the tesla 13.8kg/mile or 817 tons for 60,000 miles In reality I thin they are roughly comparable on CO2.
"lies, damm lies and statistics"


The grid right now is generating 241g CO2 per KWh (per unit)

The tesla requires 85KWh charge to 100% (20.48kg CO2)

But on that it will travel (assuming the most popular P85 model) 426Km

So 20,480g/CO2 divided by 426Km gives 48g CO2/Km

Your car is rated in official testing at 187g/Km

So where as the tesla would produce just 2.88 tons of CO2 over 60,000 miles (assuming you could concentrate all those charges needed in that time on the current amount of CO2 being produced as I type this, per KWh.

Your 187g/Km equals about 19tons over 60k miles give or take.....

When they calculate the costs of CO2 generation on the national grid they factor in a lot of information meaning even solar and wind generated electricity has a CO2 impact on that calculation.

I suspect they are not calculating the CO2 impact of transporting diesel all around the world, the cost of drilling and pumping the oil in the first place, the ships lorries and storage facilities all use to move that oil around and store it, as well as the costs and energy used to refine the diesel from crude oil.

If you factored all of these things into the calculation for your car's tail pipe emissions it would work out considerably higher than 187g/km you travel......

You probably need to quit your job with the Singapore transport ministry...
https://electrek.co/2016/03/10/tesla...ore-emissions/
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Old 21-07-2017   #77
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Re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
The grid right now is generating 241g CO2 per KWh (per unit)
Reference?
The tesla requires 85KWh charge to 100% (20.48kg CO2)
OK
But on that it will travel (assuming the most popular P85 model) 426Km
How about consitent units = 265m
So 20,480g/CO2 divided by 426Km gives 48g CO2/Km
OK and = 77.4g/m 4.46t
Your car is rated in official testing at 187g/Km Combined? Urban?
I was using real figures)


So where as the tesla would produce just 2.88 tons of CO2 over 60,000 miles
NO it is 4.46t for 60,000 miles, you have multiplied g/km by 60000 km not miles
(assuming you could concentrate all those charges needed in that time on the current amount of CO2 being produced as I type this, per KWh.

Your 187g/Km equals about 19tons over 60k miles give or take.....

When they calculate the costs of CO2 generation on the national grid they factor in a lot of information meaning even solar and wind generated electricity has a CO2 impact on that calculation.
Again were is your 241g/kWh coming from

I suspect they are not calculating the CO2 impact of transporting diesel all around the world, the cost of drilling and pumping the oil in the first place, the ships lorries and storage facilities all use to move that oil around and store it, as well as the costs and energy used to refine the diesel from crude oil.
And what about transporting the coal / gas (most comes by sea from the middle east) Mining, transmission losses etc.
If you factored all of these things into the calculation for your car's tail pipe emissions it would work out considerably higher than 187g/km you travel......
As would the Tesla and it has the extra environmental load of produving batteries etc.
You probably need to quit your job with the Singapore transport ministry...
https://electrek.co/2016/03/10/tesla...ore-emissions/
I don't work for STM but their 500g/kWh is the same as the UK government report figure I used.
Electrec's 188kWh/km s a bit more optimistic than your 199.5 but still give 145g/mile or 8.7 tons still closer to my calculation than yours.
Any way you look at it the Tesla is far from carbon neutral.

Robert G8RPI.
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Old 21-07-2017   #78
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Re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
I don't work for STM but their 500g/kWh is the same as the UK government report figure I used.
Electrec's 188kWh/km s a bit more optimistic than your 199.5 but still give 145g/mile or 8.7 tons still closer to my calculation than yours.
Any way you look at it the Tesla is far from carbon neutral.

Robert G8RPI.


You're right I multiplied by 60,000 miles and not 96,560km and that's 4.6t/60k miles. Still nearly 15t less CO2 than your car.

The current CO2 per KWh comes from the ecotricity website as a quick current snapshot that said there are plenty of websites with similar data available if you have a little look about, I find it entertaining your ability to come up with the most obscure unreferenced piece of data on a university of Exeter server, but you can't find something readily available all over the Internet when it goes against your claims.

With the longevity of battery technology being proven and tested in the likes of the Prius for many years, the tesla battery can be expected to give many years reliable service. The price of a tesla is high and they are still highly sort after on the second hand market, meaning that these cars will likely go on for many years and not be scrapped like many cars after 5-10 years. The longevity of a cars working life has a massive impact on the overall CO2 output in the lifetime of the vehicle. An old big fiat does not generally last very long, and the bigger engined 2.4 Diesel croma is now nearly worthless due to tax banding meaning many get scrapped in perfectly good useable condition, and people buy a new car with all the associated CO2 emissions that come with building a new car. This will offset a lot of those emissions produced by battery manufacturing.

The process for calculating the CO2 costs of power generation, DOES factor in all associated emissions from mining and transportation hence wind power still having an associated CO2 emission attached to it.
These calculations don't apply to your croma.


You are now trying to argue that your old croma Diesel is better for the environment than a new all electric car, against any evidence presented, it's verging on delusion.

As I stated you'd argue against the colour of the sky if someone told you it was blue, hell bent on being right even at the cost of any integrity you once may have had.
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Old 21-07-2017   #79
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Re: Mileage results & random EV musings

1/ Ecotricity, yeh they are unbiased and have no agenda - not.
2/ Can't compare Prius batteries, they are Nickel Metal Hydride not Li-Ion (did I tell you I first looked at electric vehicle technology back in the 80's when Sodium-Sulphur was the next big thing) and they are a hybrid car not plug-in.
3/ I don't drive a 2.4
4/ I'm not saying that the Croma produces less CO2 than a Tesla (it's about 80% more) or is better for the environment, I'm just refuting your 19 ton CO2 figure and the implication that the Tesla's footprint is next to nothing.

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Old 21-07-2017   #80
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Re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
1/ Ecotricity, yeh they are unbiased and have no agenda - not.
2/ Can't compare Prius batteries, they are Nickel Metal Hydride not Li-Ion (did I tell you I first looked at electric vehicle technology back in the 80's when Sodium-Sulphur was the next big thing) and they are a hybrid car not plug-in.
3/ I don't drive a 2.4
4/ I'm not saying that the Croma produces less CO2 than a Tesla (it's about 80% more) or is better for the environment, I'm just refuting your 19 ton CO2 figure and the implication that the Tesla's footprint is next to nothing.

Robert G8RPI.


1. data comes from multiple sources and it published so that people can put their washing machines on when the grid is producing the least amount of CO2 per KWh, I'm not sure from your implication of bias, what they would be bias about ? (Please don't answer, I couldn't give a toss consider it a rhetorical question)

2. Nickel metal hydride batteries have a lower battery life than comparable lithium batteries, the implication of this is that if they have been proven to be reliable in a Prius for the last 20 years then it's reasonable to expect even more from the tesla's lithium battery.
So far for all your claims of being a chartered engineer and what you've done in the past, you've said nothing to convince me that you know anymore about these subjects than what you can find on google, which you prove when you can't find easily available sources or when you come out with obscure sources to try and prove something.

3. Didn't say you did but the croma is a rapidly depreciating car and there are few about now as they're not worth people keeping them running, the 2.4 diesel being an example I used as the tax to put it on the road for a year is nearly as much as the car is worth. Certainly when a car is worth £1000 the sort of people buying that car won't be paying £500 road tax. At no point did I say you owned one, this is why you need to actually read before you reply.

4. There was no claim made that the tesla was carbon neutral or made of pixie dust or any other claim, all I said was your car produces 19t of CO2 based on the figures obtained for tax banding, if that's 10tons or 25 tons I don't really care, the 19t figure is likely to be seriously inaccurate as it's based on modern economy cycle testing and is most likely a gross underestimate, essentially all you want to do is argue and try to prove me wrong on something, somehow and you don't care what it is, this seems to be because you really don't know what you're talking about, you've shown this repeatedly been called on it and now you need to mend your dented pride.

You go on about electric cars in the 80s but know nothing about modern day cars, you doubt official charging figures and dispute everything presented without looking anything up yourself. I'm not interested in your dented pride and not interested in arguing about nothing at all. When you know something maybe try looking something up rather than trying to just find something to prove your point, get back to me.
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Old 22-07-2017   #81
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Re: Mileage results & random EV musings

This is getting way too personal now. There are forum rules about flaming, and lines are being crossed.

The discussion hasn't gone anywhere useful for at least the last 2 pages.

I'm closing this thread before someone gets infracted.
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