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Old 19-07-2017   #31
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Quote Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
That's 18.3p per mile not counting petrol.
.
My best guess from what you've posted previously is you'd be somewhere in the range of 13p-14p/mile for petrol, so if you've included insurance in your previous total, perhaps 32p/mile all in .

Well under current RAC figures .

Fuelly shows the Panda at 10.2p/mile for fuel, 55.7 mpg averaged over 78000 miles in 7yrs. It's still worth something, so if we say 7p/mile for depreciation and 3p for insurance, tax (£30pa) and DIY servicing (it's needed no repairs as such), then I'm looking at around 20p/mile all in; that's probably about as cheap as it gets.

The 500, which cost more and has done nothing like the mileage, won't even get close to these figures.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 19-07-2017 at 17:33.
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Old 19-07-2017   #32
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

I heard on the news the other day, that the cost of car insurance has gone up 11% (?) and that the average cost of car insurance is £450.

I was shocked by this figure. I've never ever paid any more than £200, and at the moment my insurance is £154 for the 500TA.

If we consider the true cost of motoring, we have to take figures such as I've posted about our Clio ....................... plus insurance, plus VED, and plus fuel used.

Depreciation is a red herring IMHO.
If you buy something, you keep it and shouldn't expect it to be worth anything at all when you've finished with it.
If or when you sell it, any money received is a bonus ............ not a guaranteed expectation because market forces are a mercurial thing.

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Old 19-07-2017   #33
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Quote Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
Depreciation is a red herring IMHO.
For most folks, it's far and away the greatest element of cost in running a car. Just look at the numbers in that pcp illustration I posted earlier.

Quote Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
If you buy something...
Not many people buy new cars outright these days. Over 85% are leased, bought on a pcp or otherwise financed. Most of these are traded in before they're paid for, and are never actually owned by the first recorded keeper.

Most deals written today will be well under water for most of the agreement term. There is still a lot of irresponsible financing out there; car finance defaults could easily trigger the next banking crisis.

Quote Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
I heard on the news the other day, that the cost of car insurance has gone up 11% (?) and that the average cost of car insurance is £450.

I was shocked by this figure. I've never ever paid any more than £200, and at the moment my insurance is £154 for the 500TA.
Just been quoted a shade under £145 to renew the Panda. Living in a big city would likely at least double that.

If you were a 17yr old with no driving history, it might be cheaper to charter a helicopter... . I've heard it said that young folks today are deferring learning to drive, partly because of this, partly because the cost of actually passing a test is another frightening number, and partly because alternative service models like uber mean taxis are getting cheaper.

Those in the know are predicting a significant correction in used vehicle values. Many current pcp deals won't have any equity at balloon payment time and the finance houses are going to take a hit on the returned vehicles.

People who buy new for cash and keep the car for most of its economic life are likely only paying about half of what it's costing folks who flit between low deposit pcp deals every couple of years.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 19-07-2017 at 18:16.
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Old 19-07-2017   #34
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Yes, the PCP deals are turning out to be bad deals. Secondhand prices are dropping I understand.

One of my hobby horses is Renault electric cars - Zoe. They want you to pay monthly a rental for the battery. This figure is more than what you would pay monthly for petrol for the same mileage. Then you have to buy the electricity at about £3 per 100miles on top of that.

Why do people buy them?

Believe me, I've looked into it and calculated the costs and even been in contact with Renault, and they reluctantly agreed with me. All they could say that the VED was zero, and it was helping the planet. What I want is for them to help me with my wallet.

Same as a PCP. You pay through the nose to own a new car.

TTFN,
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Old 19-07-2017   #35
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Quote Originally Posted by Mick F View Post
<SNIP>
Renault electric cars - Zoe.
<SNIP>

Why do people buy them?

Believe me, I've looked into it and calculated the costs and even been in contact with Renault, and they reluctantly agreed with me. All they could say that the VED was zero, and it was helping the planet. What I want is for them to help me with my wallet.
<SNIP>

Mick.
Not sure about helping the planet. The electricity may have come from coal, gas more likely but still CO2 generator. Then there are all the chemicals used to make the batteries, motors and power semiconductors. I also looked at a different all electric car and even with a significant discount on normal price for 3 years and charging for free at work (interesting tax questions on that, employer has to charge tax or apply for an exemption), it was still a lot cheaper to keep puttng diesel in the Croma and scrap it after three years than pay the rental on the electric. Additionally I'd still need access to a conventional car for the odd long distance run.

Robert G8RPI.
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Last edited by g8rpi; 19-07-2017 at 21:10.
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Old 19-07-2017   #36
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

I think you can pay a few grand extra for a Zoe and own the battery. I agree that leasing it makes no economic sense, especially as EV batteries are proving much more durable than anyone expected. Technology is moving fast with these things, and renewables are providing more and more of our electricity each year. It's a really interesting area when you start looking into it. I wouldn't like to predict exactly when, but I think EVs will be a bit like flat TVs - for a long time they were an expensive, niche product, then suddenly CRT TVs disappeared very quickly. A much more complex situation of course, but I think it will happen with internal combustion power for vehicles.
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Old 19-07-2017   #37
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Our TA 105 does a lot of short runs but averages mid 30's. On our last holiday with a nice long steady drive, it got to 54 mpg with sport mode on. Funnily enough, this is exactly the figure I used to get from out 4 cyl 1.6 litre Swift Sport.
I think my problem is I just can't resist giving it a quick blast just for a laugh, this little car really does make me grin!
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Old 20-07-2017   #38
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

So, I filled my tank yesterday. Usually every square (petrol indicator) gets me to ride 60Km.

I'm struggling to reach that now. I'm driving on traffic in the morning and my milage is 8.3l/100km or 34mpg (imperial).

I'm driving with real time stats to see how I'm driving. Is it normal when driving in first, second gear for the milage to jump to 13-18l/100km? Even when stepping on the gas just a little?

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Old 20-07-2017   #39
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

I'd guess so, as in the lower gears the engine is spinning quickly but the car isn't going far. The weather also has an effect. In cold weather the car will use more petrol than in warm weather.
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Old 20-07-2017   #40
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Quote Originally Posted by diogosgrecco View Post

I'm struggling to reach that now. I'm driving on traffic in the morning and my milage is 8.3l/100km or 34mpg (imperial).
You think that's bad, my Mazda is always on 14.7L/ 100 MILES or about 30 mpg
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Last edited by John202020; 20-07-2017 at 08:38.
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Old 20-07-2017   #41
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Quote Originally Posted by John202020 View Post
You think that's bad, my Mazda is always on 14.7L/ 100 MILES or about 30 mpg
:0

I reckon I was just spoiled by my previous car, a Daihatsu Sirion 1.0
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Old 20-07-2017   #42
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

I sold my TA at 6 years, 99K miles and bought a Maruti Hybrid.

Average over the last 1600 commuting miles.

64mpg.

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Old 20-07-2017   #43
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Quote Originally Posted by rallycinq View Post
I sold my TA at 6 years, 99K miles and bought a Maruti Hybrid.

Average over the last 1600 commuting miles.

64mpg.

Happy

D
I think plug in hybrids represent the future of motoring; you get the best features of both electric and fossil fuel power, without the deal-breaking range & recharge issues of a pure EV.

I suspect the current crop of small 2/3 cylinder turbocharged petrol engines will turn out to be just a small withering branch on the tree of automobile evolution.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 20-07-2017 at 15:43.
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Old 20-07-2017   #44
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
I think plug in hybrids represent the future of motoring; you get the best features of both electric and fossil fuel power, without the deal-breaking range & recharge issues of a pure EV.


It's fairly clear now in the last few weeks that any fossil fuel burning car's days are numbered. Hybrids are likely only to be a short term stepping stone on the way to an all electric future. The problems with range on pure electric cars is now the pure cost of the batteries and not of the motors or technology, if you go have a look at a tesla there is plenty of room in the boot and under the bonnet if they wanted to install more battery power but give the starting price of a Model S is about £70k and the P100 top end model is over £100k the main difference between the two being the battery, for the moment, the range issue remains limited by costs
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Old 20-07-2017   #45
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Hybrids are likely only to be a short term stepping stone on the way to an all electric future.
You may well be right.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
The problems with range on pure electric cars is now the pure cost of the batteries and not of the motors or technology, if you go have a look at a tesla there is plenty of room in the boot and under the bonnet if they wanted to install more battery power but give the starting price of a Model S is about £70k and the P100 top end model is over £100k the main difference between the two being the battery, for the moment, the range issue remains limited by costs
Weight is also a limiting factor with current battery technology, as is protection from thermal runaway in case of a fault.

There will inevitably be pressure to increase battery energy density at the same time as reducing manufacturing cost; the Galaxy Note 7 is a good example of what happens when a manufacturer gets this balance wrong. Bad enough in a smartphone, but scale that up to a car and you have the potential for a very serious incident.

There'll inevitably be other problems with the mass rollout of a new technology, but I'm sure these will get solved and, perhaps sooner than many might think, fossil fuelled cars will only be seen at rallies and in museums.

Developing the infrastructure to support this level of EV use may prove more problematic than producing the vehicles themselves. Governments will need to find a way to replace the tax currently levied on fossil fuels; IMO this will probably be done through road pricing.

Personal transport hasn't changed that much since I started driving in 1971; cars have got faster, safer and more efficient, but the basics are largely unchanged. By 2050, I suspect it will all be very different, though I probably won't be around to see it.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 20-07-2017 at 23:09.
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