diogosgrecco
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General Mileage results & random EV musings
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General Mileage results & random EV musings
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings
I sold my TA at 6 years, 99K miles and bought a Maruti Hybrid.
Average over the last 1600 commuting miles.
64mpg.
Happy
D
I sold my TA at 6 years, 99K miles and bought a Maruti Hybrid.
Average over the last 1600 commuting miles.
64mpg.
Happy
D
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
I think plug in hybrids represent the future of motoring; you get the best features of both electric and fossil fuel power, without the deal-breaking range & recharge issues of a pure EV.
I suspect the current crop of small 2/3 cylinder turbocharged petrol engines will turn out to be just a small withering branch on the tree of automobile evolution.
I think plug in hybrids represent the future of motoring; you get the best features of both electric and fossil fuel power, without the deal-breaking range & recharge issues of a pure EV.
I suspect the current crop of small 2/3 cylinder turbocharged petrol engines will turn out to be just a small withering branch on the tree of automobile evolution.
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings
It's fairly clear now in the last few weeks that any fossil fuel burning car's days are numbered. Hybrids are likely only to be a short term stepping stone on the way to an all electric future. The problems with range on pure electric cars is now the pure cost of the batteries and not of the motors or technology, if you go have a look at a tesla there is plenty of room in the boot and under the bonnet if they wanted to install more battery power but give the starting price of a Model S is about £70k and the P100 top end model is over £100k the main difference between the two being the battery, for the moment, the range issue remains limited by costs
It's fairly clear now in the last few weeks that any fossil fuel burning car's days are numbered. Hybrids are likely only to be a short term stepping stone on the way to an all electric future. The problems with range on pure electric cars is now the pure cost of the batteries and not of the motors or technology, if you go have a look at a tesla there is plenty of room in the boot and under the bonnet if they wanted to install more battery power but give the starting price of a Model S is about £70k and the P100 top end model is over £100k the main difference between the two being the battery, for the moment, the range issue remains limited by costs
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
You may well be right.
Weight is also a limiting factor with current battery technology, as is protection from thermal runaway in case of a fault.
There will inevitably be pressure to increase battery energy density at the same time as reducing manufacturing cost; the Galaxy Note 7 is a good example of what happens when a manufacturer gets this balance wrong. Bad enough in a smartphone, but scale that up to a car and you have the potential for a very serious incident.
There'll inevitably be other problems with the mass rollout of a new technology, but I'm sure these will get solved and, perhaps sooner than many might think, fossil fuelled cars will only be seen at rallies and in museums.
Developing the infrastructure to support this level of EV use may prove more problematic than producing the vehicles themselves. Governments will need to find a way to replace the tax currently levied on fossil fuels; IMO this will probably be done through road pricing.
Personal transport hasn't changed that much since I started driving in 1971; cars have got faster, safer and more efficient, but the basics are largely unchanged. By 2050, I suspect it will all be very different, though I probably won't be around to see it.
You may well be right.
Weight is also a limiting factor with current battery technology, as is protection from thermal runaway in case of a fault.
There will inevitably be pressure to increase battery energy density at the same time as reducing manufacturing cost; the Galaxy Note 7 is a good example of what happens when a manufacturer gets this balance wrong. Bad enough in a smartphone, but scale that up to a car and you have the potential for a very serious incident.
There'll inevitably be other problems with the mass rollout of a new technology, but I'm sure these will get solved and, perhaps sooner than many might think, fossil fuelled cars will only be seen at rallies and in museums.
Developing the infrastructure to support this level of EV use may prove more problematic than producing the vehicles themselves. Governments will need to find a way to replace the tax currently levied on fossil fuels; IMO this will probably be done through road pricing.
Personal transport hasn't changed that much since I started driving in 1971; cars have got faster, safer and more efficient, but the basics are largely unchanged. By 2050, I suspect it will all be very different, though I probably won't be around to see it.
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings
As they've recently done with the car tax banding system, the new technology will become subject to the same sorts of taxes we pay at the moment. As they usually do they will shift the goal posts in another 10-20 years again to keep up.
Though for now, I will continue to reap the benefits of my 2.0tdi £30 a year road fund licence
As they've recently done with the car tax banding system, the new technology will become subject to the same sorts of taxes we pay at the moment. As they usually do they will shift the goal posts in another 10-20 years again to keep up.
Though for now, I will continue to reap the benefits of my 2.0tdi £30 a year road fund licence
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
Yep, taxes are one of the few things in life that's certain. 20 years on, the government of the day will likely raise the same relative amount in tax from cars as they do now.
I don't see how they can separately identify electricity used to charge a car from other electricity, so they'll have to find another way of doing it. My guess is road pricing.
Yep, taxes are one of the few things in life that's certain. 20 years on, the government of the day will likely raise the same relative amount in tax from cars as they do now.
I don't see how they can separately identify electricity used to charge a car from other electricity, so they'll have to find another way of doing it. My guess is road pricing.
diogosgrecco
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Question. How many litres you guys can fill the tank? I heard a reviewer saying its 35l and he can drive around 500-600 km per tank at an average of 7-8l/100km. I can drive maximum of 450 even with this average. Is my 2015 S tank smaller? Not from what I saw on the specs.
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
I'm not aware of any changes to the 500 fuel system or tank capacity.
The nominal tank capacity is 35 litres; that's what you're supposed to be able to get out of it if you fill it as described in the handbook and run it until the engine stops from fuel staravation.
The fuel system is designed to run with an airspace. The handbook contains a specific warning not to fill it beyond the second shutoff of the filling station pump, at which point the airspace is about 6-7 litres. Some have chosen to disregard that warning and fill it to the maximim possible, dribbling it in until fuel is visible in the filler neck; it's said you can get about 42 litres in if you do this (I don't recommend you try this at home).
The first low fuel indication comes when you've about 4-5 litres left in the tank, so if you fill to the second shutoff and refuel at the first low fuel indication, you'll likely be putting somewhere betwee 30 and 31 litres in the tank. The range function will still work at this point, giving you at least an approximation of how long you've got to find a filling station.
At 7l/100km, 31 litres will take you 442km, so your 450km figure is right on the money with what you'd expect.
There's a second low fuel indication which comes on when you're down to about 2 litres; at this point the range will display "---". You've got somewhere between 20 and 40 miles left at this point before you're stranded at the roadside.
At 7l/100km, 500 km will burn exactly 35l, so that reviewer is either overfilling the car or driving it until it's gasping.
Hope this helps.
JR.
I'm not aware of any changes to the 500 fuel system or tank capacity.
The nominal tank capacity is 35 litres; that's what you're supposed to be able to get out of it if you fill it as described in the handbook and run it until the engine stops from fuel staravation.
The fuel system is designed to run with an airspace. The handbook contains a specific warning not to fill it beyond the second shutoff of the filling station pump, at which point the airspace is about 6-7 litres. Some have chosen to disregard that warning and fill it to the maximim possible, dribbling it in until fuel is visible in the filler neck; it's said you can get about 42 litres in if you do this (I don't recommend you try this at home).
The first low fuel indication comes when you've about 4-5 litres left in the tank, so if you fill to the second shutoff and refuel at the first low fuel indication, you'll likely be putting somewhere betwee 30 and 31 litres in the tank. The range function will still work at this point, giving you at least an approximation of how long you've got to find a filling station.
At 7l/100km, 31 litres will take you 442km, so your 450km figure is right on the money with what you'd expect.
There's a second low fuel indication which comes on when you're down to about 2 litres; at this point the range will display "---". You've got somewhere between 20 and 40 miles left at this point before you're stranded at the roadside.
At 7l/100km, 500 km will burn exactly 35l, so that reviewer is either overfilling the car or driving it until it's gasping.
Hope this helps.
JR.
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings
Putting bigger batteries in the car is not the answer to range issues. Apart from the extra weight (not just batteries themselves but mounting structure and stronger suspension) affecting the urban energy consumption and lowering the miles per Ah, there is the issue of longer recharge times. It's no good having a 500 mile range if it takes 2 days to recharge the car. There are chemical and physic limits to recharge rates. I think the answer is a plug in electric with an on board hydrogen powered gastubine (with recuperation) generator giving recharge and the hydrogen produced by integrated fast reactors.
Robert G8RPI.
Putting bigger batteries in the car is not the answer to range issues. Apart from the extra weight (not just batteries themselves but mounting structure and stronger suspension) affecting the urban energy consumption and lowering the miles per Ah, there is the issue of longer recharge times. It's no good having a 500 mile range if it takes 2 days to recharge the car. There are chemical and physic limits to recharge rates. I think the answer is a plug in electric with an on board hydrogen powered gastubine (with recuperation) generator giving recharge and the hydrogen produced by integrated fast reactors.
Robert G8RPI.
diogosgrecco
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It does make sense. Thanks
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
Just looked at the Renault site, and it seems that you can buy a Zoe outright, but at circa £60 per month rental means it will take over seven years to break even.
https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe-250/models-and-prices/expression-nav.html
https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe-250/purchase-options.html
£19,845 outright
£14,245 with battery rental.
= £5,600 to buy the battery.
If you pick 6,000miles per year - about what we do, perhaps a bit less, it would cost £59 per month = £708 per year = 7.9 years to break even.
Therefore, battery rental seems fine, if you consider you will have a full warranty and get full roadside assistance plus being towed to the nearest charging point.
I still think it's cheaper to own a petrol car.
Mick.
Sorry for harping on again.
Just looked at the Renault site, and it seems that you can buy a Zoe outright, but at circa £60 per month rental means it will take over seven years to break even.
https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe-250/models-and-prices/expression-nav.html
https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe-250/purchase-options.html
£19,845 outright
£14,245 with battery rental.
= £5,600 to buy the battery.
If you pick 6,000miles per year - about what we do, perhaps a bit less, it would cost £59 per month = £708 per year = 7.9 years to break even.
Therefore, battery rental seems fine, if you consider you will have a full warranty and get full roadside assistance plus being towed to the nearest charging point.
I still think it's cheaper to own a petrol car.
Mick.
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
I'd agree.
The sustainable economics of EV's is hugely suspect.
The elephant in the room is tax.
A petrol car doing 40mpg contributes about 10p/mile to the exchequer in fuel duty and VAT on the direct fuel cost. An EV contributes almost nothing; just 5% on the electricity used to recharge it. If you drove 6,000 miles/yr in an EV, you'd be paying the government about £600 less in tax than you would if you drove a petrol car. At this point, the government absorbs this to encourage EV use, but if everyone bought one, they'd have to recover it somehow.
I'd also question how much range you'll get from an EV battery pack after 6.9 years, but time will tell.
Right now the real value might be a secondhand EV such as this. Depreciation on new EV's looks pretty frightening.
If you're only going 20 miles a day, then a used EV with a degraded battery pack bought cheaply might work out well.
I'd agree.
The sustainable economics of EV's is hugely suspect.
The elephant in the room is tax.
A petrol car doing 40mpg contributes about 10p/mile to the exchequer in fuel duty and VAT on the direct fuel cost. An EV contributes almost nothing; just 5% on the electricity used to recharge it. If you drove 6,000 miles/yr in an EV, you'd be paying the government about £600 less in tax than you would if you drove a petrol car. At this point, the government absorbs this to encourage EV use, but if everyone bought one, they'd have to recover it somehow.
I'd also question how much range you'll get from an EV battery pack after 6.9 years, but time will tell.
Right now the real value might be a secondhand EV such as this. Depreciation on new EV's looks pretty frightening.
If you're only going 20 miles a day, then a used EV with a degraded battery pack bought cheaply might work out well.
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re: Mileage results & random EV musings
If you buy it used, the previous owner has paid most of the "price"
I think people need two cars, a electric one for round the doors and a large diesel car for long distance cruising(even though I hate diesel)
And does anyone buy a used electric only car? with the potential of needing a very expensive replacement battery?
If you buy it used, the previous owner has paid most of the "price"
I think people need two cars, a electric one for round the doors and a large diesel car for long distance cruising(even though I hate diesel)
And does anyone buy a used electric only car? with the potential of needing a very expensive replacement battery?
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
Yes weight is a consideration but with the likes of tesla it's hardly going to affect performance that much.
As for charging, you can charge these cars overnight at home without major issue on a domestic supply, or in the case of the tesla supercharging stations 100% can be had in 75 minutes so again when infrastructure grows the charging times won't be a major issue either, if tesla have their own way, we'll all have solar roofs and power walls to harvest power and charge our cars over night.
Yes weight is a consideration but with the likes of tesla it's hardly going to affect performance that much.
As for charging, you can charge these cars overnight at home without major issue on a domestic supply, or in the case of the tesla supercharging stations 100% can be had in 75 minutes so again when infrastructure grows the charging times won't be a major issue either, if tesla have their own way, we'll all have solar roofs and power walls to harvest power and charge our cars over night.
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
Depends what you mean by a domestic supply.
You'll still need to have a proper charging point installed; there's no way you're going to fully recharge an 85kW battery pack from a 13A socket overnight.
So driving a couple of hundred miles to your parents house, plugging into the wall and driving home next morning isn't going to work.
Depends what you mean by a domestic supply.
You'll still need to have a proper charging point installed; there's no way you're going to fully recharge an 85kW battery pack from a 13A socket overnight.
So driving a couple of hundred miles to your parents house, plugging into the wall and driving home next morning isn't going to work.
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
For the £59 per month, you get a guaranteed capacity of 75% and have full roadside assistance.
https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe-250/purchase-options.html
This one looks good value.
http://www.smithsmotorgroup.co.uk/renault/vehicle-search/7535367-renault-zoe-dynamique-intens/
Tempted?
Possibly or probably not, but I'd have to convince Mrs Mick F .............. and she would take some convincing!
Regards,
Mick.
Well, if you were to buy a Zoe secondhand, you would take over the battery rental agreement - or should I say start your own off.
For the £59 per month, you get a guaranteed capacity of 75% and have full roadside assistance.
https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe-250/purchase-options.html
This one looks good value.
http://www.smithsmotorgroup.co.uk/renault/vehicle-search/7535367-renault-zoe-dynamique-intens/
Tempted?
Possibly or probably not, but I'd have to convince Mrs Mick F .............. and she would take some convincing!
Regards,
Mick.
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
300miles on a standard charge, 200 mile journey will leave you with about ~100 miles of range left, and having a read about, off a standard 13A socket you get about 30 miles range per hour of charge so that would more or less fully recharge the car over night.
3-4 hours fully charged if you have a dedicated charger installed at home (30A) and 75 mins from a tesla super charger.
I appreciate there are other cars with much lower range like the leaf but they don't really set he standard. A leaf will do about 100-120 miles on a charge and then charging times also differ as they don't have the same fast charge options as tesla.
Most electric car manufacturers go on the principle that the majority of people don't do more than 30 miles a day.
Tesla on the other hand know people want the freedom to drive their electric car like any other car, the current top battery is 100kw but there are rumours of a 110kw or even a 200kw battery which would take the range to over 600 miles, which is plenty enough to drive from London to Paris and back again without having to stop and charge. That said there are plenty of superchargers on that route, including at the channel tunnel where chances are you'll have to sit and wait an hour on each side.
300miles on a standard charge, 200 mile journey will leave you with about ~100 miles of range left, and having a read about, off a standard 13A socket you get about 30 miles range per hour of charge so that would more or less fully recharge the car over night.
3-4 hours fully charged if you have a dedicated charger installed at home (30A) and 75 mins from a tesla super charger.
I appreciate there are other cars with much lower range like the leaf but they don't really set he standard. A leaf will do about 100-120 miles on a charge and then charging times also differ as they don't have the same fast charge options as tesla.
Most electric car manufacturers go on the principle that the majority of people don't do more than 30 miles a day.
Tesla on the other hand know people want the freedom to drive their electric car like any other car, the current top battery is 100kw but there are rumours of a 110kw or even a 200kw battery which would take the range to over 600 miles, which is plenty enough to drive from London to Paris and back again without having to stop and charge. That said there are plenty of superchargers on that route, including at the channel tunnel where chances are you'll have to sit and wait an hour on each side.
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
Mileage is dependent on hills.
Do not think that the idea of having a free ride down them would compensate ........ because it doesn't. Up plus Down doesn't equal Flat.
I doubt very much that we'd get anywhere near the milages stated round here, but I don't think it matters at all because we rarely drive more then 50miles away from home.
I like the idea of an EV - especially secondhand - but would I open my wallet for one?
Not sure at all.
Mick.
Mileage is dependent on hills.
Do not think that the idea of having a free ride down them would compensate ........ because it doesn't. Up plus Down doesn't equal Flat.
I doubt very much that we'd get anywhere near the milages stated round here, but I don't think it matters at all because we rarely drive more then 50miles away from home.
I like the idea of an EV - especially secondhand - but would I open my wallet for one?
Not sure at all.
Mick.
re: Mileage results & random EV musings
It won't be perfect, but a well designed EV or hybrid with effective regenerative braking will be significantly better than a fossil fuelled car in this regard.
It won't be perfect, but a well designed EV or hybrid with effective regenerative braking will be significantly better than a fossil fuelled car in this regard.
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