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Old 20-07-2017   #31
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

The only interest police would have when stopping motorists is checking if car is roadworthy and if the driver's licence corresponds to the vehicle they are driving (here in Aus P platers can't drive V8s and turbo performance vehicles.

No way they would be checking ECUs for 10 extra horsepowers.
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Old 20-07-2017   #32
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Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
Absolute nonsense, a remap by definition changes the fuelling (and other) maps of the car. These are stored in EEPROM ("flash memory") on any production ECU that can be changed by plugging in. Any changes are easy to spot by using the checksum of the memory. Nothing special required.

Ok so you quoted me saying 'you really need to know what you are looking at to know if an ECU had been remapped'

Then you posted a link to an article abstract that states that forensic examination of ECU devices is inherently complicated to find faults where fault codes may not indicate a problem, and links to expensive specialist equipment for doing these investigations.... and your said

"Nothing special required."

Also the engine and ECU constantly changes its own parameters depending on conditions and how the vehicle is driven which means a quick scan and comparison against the original map is always going to show some disparity no matter what, so again you need the specialist to know if these changes are normal or imposed. This is why this is not a straight forward test, why it requires specialists and specialist equipment and why the police and MOT inspectors do not test for this.

Insurance companies don't routinely even inspect cars after an accident, they have it recovered to a compound, moved to a body shop or assessed by an independent inspector for the costs of repair and then decide if they are going to scrap it or repair it. In most cases an employee of the insurance company will never see anymore of the car than a few emailed photographs.

A forensic examination is likely to only be conducted in the event of a serious accident, to rule out any mechanical problems with the vehicle before pursuing a prosecution or to report the findings to the coroner.
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Last edited by AndyRKett; 20-07-2017 at 14:56.
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Old 20-07-2017   #33
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by p6baseunit View Post
A specialist forensic scientist costs money, you think this is going to happen with an insurance company not wanting to pay out on a Fiat 1.2?
I doubt that they would bother. The question is whether it would happen if a family were killed in an accident and the press pack were crawling all over the story.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
...what you've posted above is nonsense and scaremongering.
What I've posted is unlikely, and an extreme case, but it's perfectly possible. All the relevant legislation is in place and the sentencing guidelines for causing death by driving whilst uninsured couldn't be clearer. Police forces take insurance violations seriously and just because something hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it couldn't in the future.

Quote Originally Posted by PZ500 View Post
The only interest police would have when stopping motorists is checking if car is roadworthy and if the driver's licence corresponds to the vehicle they are driving (here in Aus P platers can't drive V8s and turbo performance vehicles.
In the UK, the police routinely conduct spot checks specifically to verify that vehicles are correctly insured. Any they find that aren't are towed away there and then, leaving the occupants to find their own way home.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Yes you should absolutely tell your insurance company if you have changed anything from standard on your car.
Couldn't agree more.

Perhaps we should leave this debate on something we both agree on.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 20-07-2017 at 15:27.
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Old 20-07-2017   #34
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Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post

In the UK, the police routinely conduct spot checks specifically to verify that vehicles are correctly insured. Any they find that aren't are towed away there and then, leaving the occupants to find their own way home.
.
Interesting, in NSW every car has to have its registration and green slip paid. Green slip is insurance for injuries, death and large scale damage. There are no car technical requirements when it comes to green slip insurance, you just have to pay it.


Third party and comprehensive car insurance are optional and you only have to disclose modifications for comprehensive car insurance.
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Old 20-07-2017   #35
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by PZ500 View Post
Interesting, in NSW every car has to have its registration and green slip paid. Green slip is insurance for injuries, death and large scale damage. There are no car technical requirements when it comes to green slip insurance, you just have to pay it.

Third party and comprehensive car insurance are optional and you only have to disclose modifications for comprehensive car insurance.
I believe something similar is in place in Canada.

In the UK we have a central database to enable interested parties to quickly verify that a vehicle is insured, but police will sometimes stop vehicles which are recorded on the database as being insured specifically to look for anything which might invalidate that insurance. If they find anything, you're going to be towed. Police doing such spot checks know all the tricks and can be surprisingly thorough.

As they used to say in the Old West, you need to know the house rules before you sit down and deal the cards.
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Old 20-07-2017   #36
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Ok so you quoted me saying 'you really need to know what you are looking at to know if an ECU had been remapped'

Then you posted a link to an article abstract that states that forensic examination of ECU devices is inherently complicated to find faults where fault codes may not indicate a problem, and links to expensive specialist equipment for doing these investigations.... and your said

"Nothing special required."
To read the checksum

Also the engine and ECU constantly changes its own parameters depending on conditions and how the vehicle is driven which means a quick scan and comparison against the original map
You appear to be refering to "learnt" parameters. These are not part of the map and changing them is not a remap (the ECU will just change them back).
is always going to show some disparity no matter what, so again you need the specialist to know if these changes are normal or imposed.
Changing parameters will not affect the checksum of the map or program areas of memory.
This is why this is not a straight forward test, why it requires specialists and specialist equipment
So your mate who does "undetectable remaps" is a specialist and knows more and has more equipment than the police or insurance investigators?
and why the police and MOT inspectors do not test for this.

Insurance companies don't routinely even inspect cars after an accident, they have it recovered to a compound, moved to a body shop or assessed by an independent inspector
Acting as the insurance companies agent, so you have just contradicted your "Insurance companies don't routinely even inspect cars" statment. They may not check after a minor knock but if injury or death is involved you would be suprsed how far they will go. A quik check of an ECU costs nothing compared to putting surveilence on a suspect and they do that all the time.
for the costs of repair and then decide if they are going to scrap it or repair it. In most cases an employee of the insurance company will never see anymore of the car than a few emailed photographs.

A forensic examination is likely to only be conducted in the event of a serious accident, to rule out any mechanical problems with the vehicle before pursuing a prosecution or to report the findings to the coroner.
No, for police maybe, but an insurance company will pay for a investigation if it gets them out of a large claim. ECU checks are a quick plug in job and for popular cars it's easy to see if something has been changed.

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Last edited by g8rpi; 20-07-2017 at 17:05.
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Old 20-07-2017   #37
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
Any changes are easy to spot by using the checksum of the memory.
Normally fixing the checksum is part of the remapping procedure. Therefore checking the checksum is just a waste of time.
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Old 20-07-2017   #38
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
Normally fixing the checksum is part of the remapping procedure. Therefore checking the checksum is just a waste of time.
It's not that the checksum is wrong, it's that it's different from the the standard un remapped ECU.

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Old 20-07-2017   #39
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
In the UK we have a central database to enable interested parties to quickly verify that a vehicle is insured, but police will sometimes stop vehicles which are recorded on the database as being insured specifically to look for anything which might invalidate that insurance. If they find anything, you're going to be towed. Police doing such spot checks know all the tricks and can be surprisingly thorough.


Just to set the record straight, the police cannot just stop you because they feel like it. There has to be probable cause.

As previously stated, they do not have the ability to check and engine's map, and if they did they don't have the specialist skills needed to analyse it.
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Old 20-07-2017   #40
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
No, for police maybe, but an insurance company will pay for a investigation if it gets them out of a large claim. ECU checks are a quick plug in job and for popular cars it's easy to see if something has been changed.

Robert G8RPI.


My 'mate' who isn't a mate he is a highly sought after professional, he does remaps on all sorts including very high end supercars, does work for my brothers business remapping vans for his customers, taking 88bhp vans up to 150bhp+ doing nothing more than remaping them, and that's tested on a rolling road afterwards (I'm sure you'll claim this is rubbish but it's actually very common with VW T5 vans) he is self employed doing this and is very very good at it.

Now in talking about if an insurance companies. Insurance companies employ outside contractors to go and assess a car after an accident, they are not the insurance company and they report their findings to the insurance company, they are their 'agents' as you point out but they are not employees. The most complicated piece of equipment they carry is a tape measure and a mechanical pencil they will certainly not be looking at the ECU map and nor would that form any part of their assessment. In some cases people engage a claims management company and the actual insurance company don't have anything to do with the claims assessment or repairs, they just get lumbered with the bill at he end.

These independent assessors would however comment on alloy wheels, lowing springs or other visible mechanical modifications that may be related to the accident or are just present to make the insurance company aware.

If there was a massive accident and the car was otherwise standard, the insurance company is not going to pay a forensic specialist to analyse the ECU without a really good reason to believe it has been remapped.

If the car has lots of modifications which are not declared then there's no reason to go to the extent of looking at the ECU.

If there is a fatality then they go over the car with a fine tooth comb and will look at everything, findings will be reported to the coroner for their consideration and to report st inquest.

As usual people are arguing to the extreme to try and make a point when they have little understanding of what actually goes on.
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Old 20-07-2017   #41
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Just to set the record straight, the police cannot just stop you because they feel like it. There has to be probable cause.

Sorry are we talking about the UK police? They don't need probable cause to search you (I don't think it even means anything in UK law, you must be watching too much American TV) they just need suspicion. But they CAN stop any car for any reason without suspicion. See
https://www.gov.uk/stopped-by-police...ights/overview
You give them that right by driving.

As previously stated, they do not have the ability to check and engine's map, and if they did they don't have the specialist skills needed to analyse it.

And you know this how? Is this all UK police forces or just the ones you know? The police do not publicise all their capabilities. The tools are out there, you need little more than a laptop and a OBD interface.

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Old 20-07-2017   #42
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

I had RaceChip tuning box fitted to my Panda 4x4 TA. Just under 20% increase in power and torque. I went for this rather than a remap as it's easy to remove - for warranty purposes.

I informed my insurance company (Aviva) and the increase in premium was just over 5%. If you're a reasonable risk driver it isn't going to cost the earth.
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Old 20-07-2017   #43
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

The uk police are only allowed to stop a car in the execution of their duty, not just for fun or because they feel like it. They can't start performing diagnostic tests on your car on the side of the road without equipment (which they don't have) but also without probable cause or if you like 'Reasonable suspicion' which means the same thing it's just the uk legal system specific term. Is that ok?? Anyway they can give a glance over the car for anything untoward, they can't go further unless you've given them reason to believe you are doing anything illegal.

Now with outwardly visible modifications they have done crack downs in areas like Southend on sea where they stopped highly modified cars to see what was and wasn't declared by calling the insurance company, then acted accordingly. There is still no way for the traffic officer on the street to test the ECU to see if it has been remapped, or modified, they don't have the equipment or the required specialist know how.

Indeed how do you know 100% your own car has never had any sort of remap?

Now I know this because I have family members who work up in high ranking roles in the police force, they cross over with other areas for conferences and training, and to be honest the police love a gadget so word gets around when something new comes out.

I'm guessing as usual you're basing all your arguments on nothing more than some assumptions you've made?
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Old 20-07-2017   #44
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
<SNIP>
I'm guessing as usual you're basing all your arguments on nothing more than some assumptions you've made?
No, that's why I provided links to reputable references. The .gov site says says the police can stop a car for "any reason". It would have to be tested in court, but on the face of it, that would include for "fun" or because they had nothing else to do.
I was suprised to find that DVLA officers and "traffic officers" can stop you too (traffic officers only on motorways and major A roads).
I also said that I did not think that the police checked ECUs, just that they could.

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Old 20-07-2017   #45
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Re: Remapping a 1.2 Cat6 convertible

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
The .gov site says says the police can stop a car for "any reason". It would have to be tested in court, but on the face of it, that would include for "fun" or because they had nothing else to do.


All covered in the road traffic act of 88, go have a read.
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