LilK said:

As for the not being able to prove where and when the brakes warped, I'm fully aware that I can't prove it.

My argument is that the brakes have just been checked and were in full working order. For them to just warp out of nowhere can't be right and is quite obviously not wear and tear. I think based on that it should be covered by warranty.

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Read this thread for a detailed description of what happens and why. The problem is common to many cars of many marques when used in the UK climate. I once had a Renault 5 that was particularly prone to this.

I've lost count of the number of times I've referenced this post, which is a good indication of just how common the problem is.

frupi said:

The only way you are going to warp the discs on a car like a standard 500, is knocking it around the Nürburgring at brake neck speed and standing on the brakes in every corner, not taking a leisurely drive back home from the dealership.

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That would be true if the brakes were properly lubricated and all the parts were free to move as their designer intended.

But if a pad sticks, then modest braking pressure from normal driving can easily warp a disc; applying pressure to one side of the disc only will quickly ruin it. Also, a sticking pad can quickly overheat the brakes.

Likely scenario: car is parked in a damp environment for a couple of days or, better still, driven through water or even just washed; corrosion causes one of the pads to stick in the frame, and the next time the car is driven, the disc warps.

The bad news is that if all the dealership has done is to replace the discs and pads, without properly cleaning and lubricating the reaction frames, the new set of discs and pads won't last long before the problem reappears.

If you follow the instructions in the linked post as soon as you notice any unusual vibration on braking, there's a good chance of salvaging the existing discs and pads.

This wouldn't be so much of an issue if more folks fixed their own cars; even if you need to replace both discs and pads, the whole job can be done thoroughly, with everything properly cleaned and lubricated, in a couple of hours for about the price of a tank of fuel and the result will give you problem free braking for many tens of thousands of miles. The problem is that many folks are paying £250 a pop to the dealerships to just slip in a new set of pads & discs without cleaning or lubricating anything; premature failure is then practically guaranteed.

I've lost count of the number of posts I've seen from folks who've driven like grannies and still needed new discs & pads after as little as 10k/18months. I've also seen many cars with significantly uneven pad wear - another sure sign of sticking pads.

I routinely see at least 50k out of a set of pads.

I hadn't personally thought about a sticking pad, though surely if one pad was sticking, then there would be a noticeable pull to one side under braking?

As for cleaning the caliper carriers/reaction frames, yup, I've seen folks pop out pads and pull off discs and then not carry out any cleaning of the frames at all, which is just stupid. I recently changed the discs and pads on my Saab. I spent almost 1/2 hour just wire brushing and cleaning both hubs/carriers etc before reassembly. I've had no issues. It's called doing the job properly.

frupi said:

I hadn't personally thought about a sticking pad, though surely if one pad was sticking, then there would be a noticeable pull to one side under braking?

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You'd think so, but surprisingly, it often doesn't - modern power steering systems remove much of the feedback that you had in the old days.

Garages doing a combined MOT & service will often do the MOT first as this flags any additional work which may be required and the customer can be contacted early for authorisation. Often the brakes will pass the differential braking test, yet be found in an appaling state once the wheel is removed later to inspect the pads properly. I remember in particular a car which passed a rolling road brake test with one of the pads making metal.

Is it me or do all pads have over sized backing plate ends, such that they are a tight fit in the caliper bracket, so after a short time they are virtually jammed in?(to the point you have to hammer it out) Having had this several times in spite of the stainless shims, I now file the ends, so that the pad simply "places in", the anti rattle springs stop any rattles and I've never had any issues over many years using this practice.

John202020 said:

Is it me or do all pads have over sized backing plate ends, such that they are a tight fit in the caliper bracket, so after a short time they are virtually jammed in?(to the point you have to hammer it out) Having had this several times in spite of the stainless shims, I now file the ends, so that the pad simply "places in", the anti rattle springs stop any rattles and I've never had any issues over many years using this practice.

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Normally it's corrosion on the sliding surface of the caliper bracket which tightens the fit (corrosion makes the metal expand) - if you remove the brackets and take off the corrosion, then generally the pads slide freely. You can't clean the brackets properly without removing them from the car.

Some aftermarket pads may indeed be manufactured to incorrect tolerances, in which case a quick touch of the file may be needed to enable the proper clearance, but get the brackets clean first, or you may find they're too loose a fit.

jrkitching said:

.......Some aftermarket pads may indeed be manufactured to incorrect tolerances, in which case a quick touch of the file may be needed to enable the proper clearance, but get the brackets clean first, or you may find they're too loose a fit.

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Which is precisely the reason why I never use cheap replacement aftermarket pads. On the one occasion I changed the pads on our old POP, I used genuine Fiat pads, cost £25 from a Fiat dealer selling on ebay. On my Saab, I only every use genuine GM replacements. I've never had any issues with squealing, or sticking.

Folk often complain about the cost of replacement pads, hence why they'll often if they are doing the job themselves, find the cheapest stoppers they can lay their hands on just to save a few quid. When you consider, as you've already stated, you can get at least 50,000 miles out of a set of pads, (and I've only just recently changed out the front pads and discs on my Saab at 48,000 miles), skimping on a job that only needs doing for many, only once every 5 years or so, then it doesn't make sense putting crap parts on.

frupi said:

When you consider, as you've already stated, you can get at least 50,000 miles out of a set of pads, (and I've only just recently changed out the front pads and discs on my Saab at 48,000 miles), skimping on a job that only needs doing for many, only once every 5 years or so, then it doesn't make sense putting crap parts on.

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Couldn't agree more, but that doesn't necessarily mean sticking with OEM parts (IMO many Fiat OEM parts aren't that great anyway).

Folks generally speak well of Brembo parts, and from personal experience, Pagid brake parts are a cost-effective good quality alternative and an improvement on the OEM ones.

Buying the cheapest stuff you can get from the factors is usually false economy. If you buy a set of mickey mouse pads for £4 a set, don't expect them to either fit well or work well.

This forum is a great place to share experiences of what works, and what doesn't.

I've just got an e-mail from the service manager who says that he believes it was caused by faulty brake discs.

He says that this won't be covered under the warranty.

I think that's ridiculous! If the discs are faulty then surely Fiat should replace them FOC?

He has offered me a free service next year, but I want a damn refund haha!

As I said in my first post on this subject, this whole thing stinks.

I too would be banging on the desk for a refund. I'd also be contacting Fiat CS on FB and politely, but firmly making a complaint.

Don't worry about upsetting the dealership. Sort the situation out and find another dealership if there's one within reasonable travelling distance. I was lucky when we had both of our 500's, six dealerships within a 30 mile radius. I used three of them over the course of ownership. I didn't even buy either car from any of them, indeed one of the cars I bought from a Fiat dealer 150 miles from where we live.

frupi said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. There are all sorts of things listed in car warranties that state certain things are covered or not covered.

~ If i bought a car that in the first week the brake discs warped or the the pads disintegrated, i'm pretty sure i'd get them replaced under warranty,

~ I bought a brand new i10 last july. In november 2015, i took the car back to my supplying dealership to have four winter tyres that i supplied, fitted by the dealership. When they changed the tyres, on collecting the car, i noticed that the lacquer on all four diamond cut alloy wheels were damaged where the bang on wheel weights had been from the factory. I complained and all four wheels were replaced without fuss. So i think sometimes it's the way you complain.

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Warranties do indeed say all sorts of things but one thing they all have in common is than non cover brakes, non cover clutches.

A dealer my at their discretion agree to replace something FOC if there is a good reason like a brake pad failing on a new car, but that's not what we are talking about.

We are talking about warped discs, which were not new and freshly fitted, they had a good few miles on them.

Lacquer problems on cut faced alloy wheels is not an uncommon problem at all and many manufactures end up replacing these wheels under warranty because of defects and damage, but that's not a consumable part that wears out, wheels should last the life of the car, breaks are never expected to last the life of a car. They are by design a sacrificial part

AndyRKett said:

.....We are talking about warped discs, which were not new and freshly fitted, they had a good few miles on them.

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I promise you, I'm not deliberately being argumentative, I'm merely pointing out that LilK stated, she took the car into the dealership and the brakes were apparently fine. She drives the car a short distance from the dealership and there's a problem. If there wasn't a problem before the car went in and the problem was immediately noticeable on driving the car away from the dealership, it isn't unreasonable to assume something has happend in the interim. That's all I'm saying!

frupi said:

I promise you, I'm not deliberately being argumentative, I'm merely pointing out that LilK stated, she took the car into the dealership and the brakes were apparently fine. She drives the car a short distance from the dealership and there's a problem. If there wasn't a problem before the car went in and the problem was immediately noticeable on driving the car away from the dealership, it isn't unreasonable to assume something has happend in the interim. That's all I'm saying!

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My entire point is that it's irrelevant, because brake discs are still not a warranty item which is the argument in hand.

Brake discs warp this is not something a dealer can set up to happen after you've left the dealer, and the warranty company will not pay out on warped discs, it's as simple as that, that's that what I've said over and over but you're arguing about something else it seems

AndyRKett said:

My entire point is that it's irrelevant, because brake discs are still not a warranty item which is the argument in hand.

Brake discs warp this is not something a dealer can set up to happen after you've left the dealer, and the warranty company will not pay out on warped discs, it's as simple as that, that's that what I've said over and over but you're arguing about something else it seems

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With respect, I think you've misinterpreted my posts completely. I couldn't in fact give a monkies about the fact brake discs aren't covered under warranty. It still wouldn't stop me from trying to make a claim, but that's just me, I'm a pain in the arse!

The point I was making and I repeat again, is there was apparently nothing wrong with the brakes when the car went into the dealership and the car had seemingly barely made it out of the dealership when the problem manifested itself. Personally, I'd have been inclined to turn right back round there and then and go straight back to the dealership to raise the issue, but we're not here to pass judgement on another owner's decision.

Clearly, the dealership cannot 'set up' a warped disc scenario and I wasn't implying they did. Neither LilK, you, nor I know for a fact that the discs were warped in the first place, it's all third hand stuff, just as we don't know whether or not the car was taken out on a test drive and the discs were inadvertently warped by the person road testing the vehicle if indeed it was ever properly road tested after the gear stick fault. It's all supposition. We're merely guided by what LilK was allegedly told and has relayed to us all.

As someone else posted and something I have often done myself in the past, ask for the old parts back, something you're perfectly entitled to do (unless the parts are replaced under warranty in which case they will be retained for inspection/fault diagnosis by the manufacturer) otherwise they are still in fact your property, so you can inspect the parts yourself or get another opinion. Whether you get the actual parts off your vehicle back, is another matter.

I'm sad to say, I've been to garages where the Service Manager/garage owner had downright blatently lied to me or made something up as a cause for an issue that wasn't there in the first place, the best exampe being, 'Sir, the front shock absorbers on your Austin Metro need changing because they're leaking'. If you know your vehicles, you'll know that the Metro didn't have front shock absorbers/struts like most standard road vehicles, it had hydragas/hydrolastic suspension which occasionally needed to be 'pumped up' to return it to optimum performance, something I knew anyway. For someone who doesn't know cars, this type of BS is an easy money maker because it is basically treating the owner like they're a moron.

So yes, I am cynical, but occasionally, and I'm not implying the dealership in this case was, some garages could actually be the cause of problems that weren't there in the first place, after all, no one is perfect! or indeed they might be economical with the truth just to cover their own rear ends where they've actually been at fault.

You may not agree with my views or my cynisism, but there it is.