General 105 Twinair Cold Starting and stalling issue

[aschen]

We have a fiat 500 Lounge twinair 105BHP, it is a 64 plate and purchased new. Whenever it is cold (below 5 degrees Celsius) The car starts idling lower and lower until it eventually stalls. . . I have vids myself but found a perfect example can be found by googling "Fiat 500 105 TA stall when cold" it's the top hit.

Putting on the aircon or anything else electrical just helps it stall faster! It's been to the garage numerous times and had what seems like everything replaced on it and it still does it. I even have a video of it almost stalling and then juddering like it is only running on one cylinder then stinks of petrol. Clearly not desired operation or a feature I look for when buying a car. . .

Just wanted to know if anyone else has noticed this and maybe thought nothing of it?

 

[John202020]

Have the garage replaced the ecu? I wonder what would happen if now it's warmer if you manipulated the temperature inputs to the ecu if the same effect happens?

 

[Mercky]

if its ok when warm it could be a dodgy temp sensor, get your garage to run some diagnostics when cold if possible

 

[aschen]

As far as i'm aware they have not changed the ECU. They have had it 8 times i think the last count was. So far they have changed or checked:

Coils/pack
spark plugs
battery
Engine codes
had it on a diagnostic machine when it is cold

They haven't been able to replicate it but the service reception staff helpfully told us 1 in 10 twin airs are affected and there is no fix...

 

[aschen]

Mercky, we left it with the dealership for 2 weeks whilst they did those tests. They said nothing was wrong. A few days later the unusually cold April weather got us down to below freezing and we were able to replicate the fault two days in a row, thankfully both on film!

The fault appeared from when it was 4 months old (the cars first winter) it goes away in the summer and then this winter it's been in and out the garage. One time they forgot to tension the aux drive belt after one attempted fix. . .

 

[mixwell]

That's my video you saw on YouTube.

Theres a thread on here about it if you have a search. I never got it solved and neither did the other guy in the thread.

I personally think it's a faulty temp sensor or an 02 sensor.

 

[aschen]

I've read a few on here. Fiat have closed the case saying that a fix is due June time. The only thing is waiting until winter to figure out if it has worked. I just think they don't take it seriously. We've been told that 1 in 10 are affected. Hopefully people will see this and submit their cars to dealers. If I can post a link I'll post the video of ours stalling. I wonder how they are doing in really cold places....

 

[John202020]

Temp sensors resistance goes down when hot, so if you disconnect them the ecu may think it's very cold so may replicat the problem, but the ecu may also say there's an issue with it (ie out of range ) and ignore them ,might be interesting to see what happens if they were disconnected?

 

[Mercky]

I've read a few on here. Fiat have closed the case saying that a fix is due June time. The only thing is waiting until winter to figure out if it has worked. I just think they don't take it seriously. We've been told that 1 in 10 are affected. Hopefully people will see this and submit their cars to dealers. If I can post a link I'll post the video of ours stalling. I wonder how they are doing in really cold places....

I'm presuming the correct oil has been used, ie, 0w30 of the correct classification? The reason I ask is my 85 had the wrong oil put in after an oil change and it ran like a dog when cold

 

[aschen]

It developed the fault 4 months after we had it from new. i hope Fiat managed to put the right oil in the engine. The only way to be sure is to drain and refill but that's going to be up to the dealer as i'm not messing with a new car. It will stay as it came out of the factory.

I have seen a few posts on here that say the engine sometimes runs fine, nice and smooth other times lumpy. We get that too. I'm left wondering if these little engines are going to have a short life span...

 

[TrevC]

Sorry you are having your problems with your TA. I've had my (85) for 5 years and 40,000 miles and it hasn't missed a beat. The reports you have seen about "lumpy running" are probably in discussions about fuel type, to which I have contributed. Some of us have noticed that the engine is a little smoother at low revs some days, sometimes coincident with using a tankful or two of "superfuel" eg Shell V-Power. I would never describe my car as having lumpy running, I think what you have described is a distinct fault and it's very disappointing that the dealer/Fiat cannot sort it.
As with all faults, it's very difficult to ascertain how common it is in the total population of Twinairs, but it doesn't seem to be a very common theme on this forum, so I'm guessing it's quite unusual.
I hope you manage to get it sorted soon.

 

[rkt2003]

Mercky, we left it with the dealership for 2 weeks whilst they did those tests. They said nothing was wrong. A few days later the unusually cold April weather got us down to below freezing and we were able to replicate the fault two days in a row, thankfully both on film!

The fault appeared from when it was 4 months old (the cars first winter) it goes away in the summer and then this winter it's been in and out the garage. One time they forgot to tension the aux drive belt after one attempted fix. . .

Sounds very similar to my fault it never got rectified in 6 months no matter how long they had the car ,they said no faults showed up etc even with my video evidence and having the car for days on end it got to a point when i thought enough is enough and sold it ,here is the thread i started just ignore the patronizing remarks at the end of the day i put it on the site to help fellow users in the future like yourself thank you. https://www.fiatforum.com/500/420286-cold-starts-2.html

 

[aschen]

Sounds very similar to my fault it never got rectified in 6 months no matter how long they had the car ,they said no faults showed up etc even with my video evidence and having the car for days on end it got to a point when i thought enough is enough and sold it ,here is the thread i started just ignore the patronizing remarks at the end of the day i put it on the site to help fellow users in the future like yourself thank you. https://www.fiatforum.com/500/420286-cold-starts-2.html

RKT2003, thanks for this, I just read all that thread. Our dealership has had it and at one point called us a liar they used the word fibbing before they immediately back tracked probably realising the customer is always right part of the training, I think he was trying to play devil's advocate and realised what he had said. In the family we have 4 cars with this fiat branch, two 85 twins which have been fine, a 105 twin which is the stalling menace, and an Alfa romeo giulietta 2.0 litre diesel. So around 60k worth of cars in 4 years, so why make up a fault! This is when we got it on film twice. Fiat have actually said to us it affects 1 in 10 cars which is a huge amount! I'll try to link my videos. To be fair our garage is helping us quite a lot, they have seen the videos and have fiat zone managers invloved. It's not that we don't like the car it's just we'd like to start it and drive off in the morning rather than faff about restarting it and putting up with the awful running whilst it sorts itself out. I'm hoping more and more people see this who have the same problem and rather than just restart the car and dismiss it actually tap fiat up for answers. Here are my vids, I couldn't turn the window wipers off in the second one and I swear so just to warn people. Also sorry for my annoying voice.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2h7MoRKxMAyaW12aXBmVDNHU3c/view?usp=drivesdk


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2h7MoRKxMAyXzFTblM3UXBic00/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[aschen]

I also pointed out to them that if I were a salesman trying to sell a customer one of these 105 twins, and said that a feature of these cars was that they stall in the cold so you have to restart them, they don't know why but it doesn't affect the overall drive. I honestly as a customer would not buy it, I also think they saw my point. I'm thinking of getting a window sticker made up saying 'I stall below 5 degrees celcius' buy me now!

 

[rkt2003]

I also pointed out to them that if I were a salesman trying to sell a customer one of these 105 twins, and said that a feature of these cars was that they stall in the cold so you have to restart them, they don't know why but it doesn't affect the overall drive. I honestly as a customer would not buy it, I also think they saw my point. I'm thinking of getting a window sticker made up saying 'I stall below 5 degrees celcius' buy me now!

Lol yes this is why i believe its got to be a sensor whether the fault shows up or not ,as you can see from both our videoes the mileage on yours and mine were below 5000 miles the temperature is always the problem if left outside overnight and its below 5c it did not start first time 6 out of 10 times sometimes more .It must mainly affect the 105 mainly i loved the little thing but after 2 dealerships had the car for a combined total of over 2 weeks and both said there is nothing we can do the fault does not repilicate etc no faults on the computer or im fibbing which i knew i wasnt i bit the bullet and sold her !,i even sent the video to Fiat hq via a customer services agent ,maybe they are now realising there is actually a problem which is great for you i hope .
P.S i did not use the air con on start up .

 

[Mercky]

As an observation, I see that you are switching the ACC in to full demist mode immediately with full fan speed, from memory my ACC will only do this even in demist mode when the car has somewhat warmed up, I also see from your speedo that the engine is cold and it's 3 degrees outside. I'm not suggesting you don't have a problem but could it be something to do with the ACC putting a premature load on the engine when it's not warmed up sufficiently? Presumably you've tried it with ACC left in auto on start up or even off altogether?

 

[jrkitching]

As an observation, I see that you are switching the ACC in to full demist mode immediately with full fan speed, from memory my ACC will only do this even in demist mode when the car has somewhat warmed up, I also see from your speedo that the engine is cold and it's 3 degrees outside. I'm not suggesting you don't have a problem but could it be something to do with the ACC putting a premature load on the engine when it's not warmed up sufficiently? Presumably you've tried it with ACC left in auto on start up or even off altogether?

Well spotted, Mercky.

I've always made a point of ensuring all unnecessary loads are left off until the engine is at least warmed up to the point the coolant is up to operating temperature. I would never start any engine without first ensuring the A/C compressor is switched out.

The fuel control system is likely designed on the basis that the engine is running under a 'no load' condition when it first starts in open loop mode. Having the A/C compressor engage at this point could easily be sufficient to stall it, particularly when the oil is cold and viscous.

 

[aschen]

It will do it without turning anything on, but it has to be colder.

 

[Mercky]

Well spotted, Mercky.

I've always made a point of ensuring all unnecessary loads are left off until the engine is at least warmed up to the point the coolant is up to operating temperature. I would never start any engine without first ensuring the A/C compressor is switched out.

The fuel control system is likely designed on the basis that the engine is running under a 'no load' condition when it first starts in open loop mode. Having the A/C compressor engage at this point could easily be sufficient to stall it, particularly when the oil is cold and viscous.

My TA will run at about 1200rpm on idle when cold and then gradually drops to about 850 or 900. The demist button on the ACC also instantaneously switches in the rear screen heater so I can't imagine it would help a cold engine idle, whether the ecu compensates are not I'm not sure however the OP does say it happens even with everything off regardless

 

[rkt2003]

Well spotted, Mercky.

I've always made a point of ensuring all unnecessary loads are left off until the engine is at least warmed up to the point the coolant is up to operating temperature. I would never start any engine without first ensuring the A/C compressor is switched out.

The fuel control system is likely designed on the basis that the engine is running under a 'no load' condition when it first starts in open loop mode. Having the A/C compressor engage at this point could easily be sufficient to stall it, particularly when the oil is cold and viscous.

I had everything turned off on start up ,Radio,Air-con etc but still it persisted in colder temperatures only hence why i thought it must be a sensor ,aschen needs to do the same turn everything off ,