Technical Uneven idle, stalling from idle, Engine knock when revving

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Technical Uneven idle, stalling from idle, Engine knock when revving

Kake

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Heya,

This is not exacly a fiat.... Or it is, but its branded as Ford KA, and i think from here i can found more expertise then in the ford section :)

So, its my wifes car, 2011, 1.2L 60 000km driven. Regulary serviced at the stealership, and 0 previous issues whit the car.

Last week, the winter decided to come over, and the temperature dropped to nice and comfy -27c. On the morging i got call from my wife that when she got to work, the car had realy shaky-hars-wobly and uneven idle. After a while of that uneven idle, that car stalls. When trying to restart it, it will not start unless you give it some gas while cranking.

Went to drop my car to her, and picked her car for inspection.

When the engine is cold, it runs just fine, no issues there. Then i hitted the highway, engine warmed up, got out of the highway, and the idle was all wrong. Also, what i noticed that there was engine knock in present. Sound bit like a bad tappets, but it goes away as soon as you ease on the throtle, and comes back as soon as you push the throttle.

Checked the fault codes, and there were non present.

I changed the sparkplugs: The tip of the plugs were looking ok, but the rest of the plugs were nearly snow white. (lean mix?) After changin the sparkplugs, the idlle was still the same, the knocking was still there, but it did not stall any more.

At this point, i pulled the plug from the first lambda (in order to get the check engine light on, and force the PCM to rich fail-safe-map)... As soon as i pulled the lambda, the idle was perfect and the knocking was gone.

Ok, so at this point i was like "ok, the lambda is broken".

I used the car for a day like this, and then the idle and the knocking came back.

At this point, i reconnected the lambda, and connected the IDS software and took it for a spin. From the livedata, everything seems to be just fine.

when coasting, the first lambda is constantly hopping between rich-lean-rich-lean-rich-lean, accelerating it stays rich, and engine braking it goes to lean.

The second lambda follows, but much "calmer" pace.

I assume that the engine knock is from pre-detonation caused by to lean mix, but now im kinda lost, since everything seems to work, but does not.

Thanks
Carl
 
It's a while since I've looked into this but I have a feeling this is normal:
when coasting, the first lambda is constantly hopping between rich-lean-rich-lean-rich-lean, accelerating it stays rich, and engine braking it goes to lean.

Don't take this as fact though. I would suggest looking into this some more as you say disconnecting the first one improved running. They are easy to test if you can remove it. Check out youtube or even just replace it.

As it runs ok when cold (running rich) and when hot doesn't this does suggest it's running too lean. How about taking it to a garage with a gas analysis machine?

As the poor running coincided with a drop in temperature do you think it could be hydraulic tappits acting up? i.e. due to the oil being thicker?
 
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Heya,

This is not exacly a fiat.... Or it is, but its branded as Ford KA, and i think from here i can found more expertise then in the ford section :)

So, its my wifes car, 2011, 1.2L 60 000km driven. Regulary serviced at the stealership, and 0 previous issues whit the car.

Last week, the winter decided to come over, and the temperature dropped to nice and comfy -27c. On the morging i got call from my wife that when she got to work, the car had realy shaky-hars-wobly and uneven idle. After a while of that uneven idle, that car stalls. When trying to restart it, it will not start unless you give it some gas while cranking.

Went to drop my car to her, and picked her car for inspection.

When the engine is cold, it runs just fine, no issues there. Then i hitted the highway, engine warmed up, got out of the highway, and the idle was all wrong. Also, what i noticed that there was engine knock in present. Sound bit like a bad tappets, but it goes away as soon as you ease on the throtle, and comes back as soon as you push the throttle.

Checked the fault codes, and there were non present.

I changed the sparkplugs: The tip of the plugs were looking ok, but the rest of the plugs were nearly snow white. (lean mix?) After changin the sparkplugs, the idlle was still the same, the knocking was still there, but it did not stall any more.

At this point, i pulled the plug from the first lambda (in order to get the check engine light on, and force the PCM to rich fail-safe-map)... As soon as i pulled the lambda, the idle was perfect and the knocking was gone.

Ok, so at this point i was like "ok, the lambda is broken".

I used the car for a day like this, and then the idle and the knocking came back.

At this point, i reconnected the lambda, and connected the IDS software and took it for a spin. From the livedata, everything seems to be just fine.

when coasting, the first lambda is constantly hopping between rich-lean-rich-lean-rich-lean, accelerating it stays rich, and engine braking it goes to lean.

The second lambda follows, but much "calmer" pace.

I assume that the engine knock is from pre-detonation caused by to lean mix, but now im kinda lost, since everything seems to work, but does not.

Thanks
Carl
I think -27 is a bit too cold for the car = )
 
its only -10 now :) And its still acting up :(

The normal lambda sond cant tell you how much the mixture is of. It can only tell you if the mix is lean or rich, and why it is "balancing" between lean-rich-lean-rich, witch tells me that according to the information available from the car, it is "working properly". And in the cars eyes the mix is spot on.

New lambda would be ~150€ , so id like te be sure before changin it, especialy since the 2 lambdas are not interchangeable.

The knocking sounds like tappets, but it has to be combustion related since its only knocking when the injection time is <3ms... so it does not knock on idle or before ~1700rpm... After that it sounds like an old 320 e30 bmw :/

Wound some other finnish guy from here making post that his 500 had bad idle last winter, and cleaning the MAP solved that. I think i try that one and report back :)
 
Wound some other finnish guy from here making post that his 500 had bad idle last winter, and cleaning the MAP solved that. I think i try that one and report back

You could try disconnecting it. Not sure if it works on fiat but doing so on other vehicles can make them run better as the ecu reverts to assumed / calculated values.

A faulty maf won't always log a fault code.

I agree €150 is too much to change if you're not sure.
 
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