Re: 500C Vibes Facebook group now live, please share

Hi, thanks for the comments. It's definitely a disappointment.

jrkitching said:

To be of any use in a rejection claim, your independent report must state absolutely and unambiguously that the car has a design fault, present at the time of original manufacture, which renders the car substantially unfit for purpose, or unsafe to drive.

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I couldn't possibly comment , other than to say I'm happy to pursue based on the report.

jrkitching said:

If you bought it on any kind of finance scheme linked to the car, chances are that you won't legally own it, in which case, you can't legally reject it anyway.

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Yes, bought on PCP so agreement (and ownership) is with Fiat's finance co. However, under Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 (as amended), you are within your rights to expect product supplied to be of satisfactory quality (which it isn't) and can reject for refund (or partial at least) or replacement.

jrkitching said:

I've first hand experience of having rejected faulty goods and suing the supplier in the County Court; it's not something to be taken lightly and I'd advise you to think very, very carefully before going down this route. Even if you win your case, the time, effort and stress involved will leave you feeling like a loser.

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Sorry to hear that. Yes, I know, it isn't to be taken lightly and I wouldn't be going down that route if I didn't feel I had a sound case. Whatever happens next depends on outcome with Financial Ombudsman.

jrkitching said:

Mel's advice is sound; sometimes the best thing you can do is to write off your losses and move on.

At least the 500's popularity should get you a decent p/x price against another marque.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck with it.

Please keep posting; learning about your experiences helps us all.

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Thanks, I will keep updating here (with some info held back, obviously), it will be worthwhile even if I fail but help someone else get a resolution. Unfortunately, the PX value is lower than the settlement figure so I would have to pay a four figure sum to get out of the contract even though I've spent quite a bit more than that in deposit and payments. That's not why I'm doing this though - in a perfect world, I would continue to be happy with the car and I'm not sure that that isn't the worst disappointment of it all!

Thanks again for support and comments.

Re: 500C Vibes Facebook group now live, please share

pigglycat said:

However, under Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 (as amended), you are within your rights to expect product supplied to be of satisfactory quality (which it isn't) and can reject for refund (or partial at least) or replacement.

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Having read the thread myself very carefully too, a few things leap out at me. 1. You were happy with the car when it was supplied and stat that there were no problems with the car until you had covered 6000 miles. So at the point of supply the car was of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose.

2. Later it developed this problem which you've pointed out is shared with a lot of other cars which fiat state is a characteristic of the model. You've tried other cars which also exhibit this behaviour.

3. Although you have a report from an engineer stating there is a design fault, he's not actually been able to say what the "design fault" is. What the actual problem? What is causing the vibration? Why can't it be fixed. Your expert engineer is simply giving an opinion without evidence or explanation and that's really not going to stand up in court.

If he says this is a problem with convertible cars and that why he thinks it is the case then the court will go with it being a characteristic of the car as fiat claim.

I'm not sure at the moment you have anywhere to go, you've driven cars both with and without the problem, you can't show what the cause is to enable fiat the opportunity to repair the fault and fiat themself have been unable to find any fault.

Re: 500C Vibes Facebook group now live, please share

Hi AndyRKett, thanks for comments. Unfortunately, I'm not prepared to go into any further detail about the report detail or comment further on my confidence in taking it further. I should also make it clear that I am not in any way attempting to slate Fiat or their designers and I'm just stating my experiences with my car.

The car was fit for purpose when supplied, but that's no longer the case. Normally, a warranty would be expected to cover such issues but as Fiat don't have an solution (and have had plenty of opportunities to provide one) and are playing the 'characteristic' card, I have no other remedy available to me. A bit like the Euro 6 'characteristic' which I experienced from day 1 too but was able to adapt my driving style to it - can't do that with this one.

Thanks again.

Is there anyone out there who owns/has owned/drives a Fiat or Abarth 500C who can offer an opinion from their own experiences of how the car drives - especially if owned/driven from new? If you're happy with your 500C, then I'll be as pleased to hear from you as if you're not!

Re: 500C Vibes Facebook group now live, please share

pigglycat said:

Is there anyone out there who owns/has owned/drives a Fiat or Abarth 500C who can offer an opinion from their own experiences of how the car drives - especially if owned/driven from new? If you're happy with your 500C, then I'll be as pleased to hear from you as if you're not!

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We have two 500C's, a 1200 Pop and a TA Lounge, both are about 2.5 years old and just under 10,000 miles with no such issues apparent.

Re: 500C Vibes Facebook group now live, please share

pigglycat said:

Hi AndyRKett, thanks for comments. Unfortunately, I'm not prepared to go into any further detail about the report detail or comment further on my confidence in taking it further. I should also make it clear that I am not in any way attempting to slate Fiat or their designers and I'm just stating my experiences with my car.

The car was fit for purpose when supplied, but that's no longer the case. Normally, a warranty would be expected to cover such issues but as Fiat don't have an solution (and have had plenty of opportunities to provide one) and are playing the 'characteristic' card, I have no other remedy available to me. A bit like the Euro 6 'characteristic' which I experienced from day 1 too but was able to adapt my driving style to it - can't do that with this one.

Thanks again.



Is there anyone out there who owns/has owned/drives a Fiat or Abarth 500C who can offer an opinion from their own experiences of how the car drives - especially if owned/driven from new? If you're happy with your 500C, then I'll be as pleased to hear from you as if you're not!

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This is the first that I have heard of this issue with a 500C, is it common to 500c only? In which case it would indicate it has something to do with the roof??

Thanks!

Piccolo Nero e Bella said:

We have two 500C's, a 1200 Pop and a TA Lounge, both are about 2.5 years old and just under 10,000 miles with no such issues apparent.

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Thanks, that's great to hear

Re: Thanks!

Pigglycat, as section mod I try to read all that's posted here, and I don't recall anyone else posting about a similar issue to yours. If there were a generic problem developing in all 500c's, I'd have expected to have heard of it by now - and I haven't.

That leads me to believe that the cause of the vibration is specific to your car, but that doesn't square with your earlier post saying that you'd tried two other used 500c's and found them worse.

I could speculate for a long time about possible causes, but it's hard to diagnose faults from a keyboard and I don't think doing this would help you. I'd expect the obvious ones would have been checked pretty thoroughly by now, anyway. It's hard to say anything useful without knowing more about what the independent engineer is saying about the nature of the problem, but I can understand your reluctance to go into detail on a public forum whilst your case is ongoing. Please don't post anything which could jeopardise any future legal action.

What I can say, though, is that there have been many posts from folks who've had significant, unrelated issues with new 500's and who've had considerable difficulty in getting either the selling dealer or the manufacturer to properly investigate and fix them; in that sense, you are not alone. I do understand how frustrated you must be at having to take the extreme kind of action you are describing in order to get a resolution to what may yet turn out to be a simple, if obscure, repair.

Finding the cause of this likely will need an experienced mechanic who can think outside of the box; sadly there aren't that many of those left in any of the franchised dealer networks.

Re: Thanks!

Pigglycat, as section mod I try to read all that's posted here, and I don't recall anyone else posting about a similar issue to yours. If there were a generic problem developing in all 500c's, I'd have expected to have heard of it by now - and I haven't.

That leads me to believe that the cause of the vibration is specific to your car, but that doesn't square with your earlier post saying that you'd tried two other used 500c's and found them worse

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Thanks, yes I have to agree, I've spent hour on hour picking through posts on this and other sites about the 500 (and Panda and current Ka too for that matter) to see if anything stands out and there's nothing. I too would have expected to see at least one or two comments somewhere if it was present in every car - all I can say is that it has been there to at least the same level as mine in the three different 500C's I've tried, with the exception of the new one. I even started wondering if I've got over-sensitive hands(!), but that's not the case as it's been acknowledged by several different people.

It's such a shame that (as with the other significant issues) they let themselves down at the support and customer service level when they've got a very good product in the 500. Feels to me that if they don't have a fix, they just dig their heels in as they did with Euro 6.

Thanks again

Hi Pigglycat

I'm still thinking it may be a drive shaft issue. It might be worth taking it to an independent garage and have them pop the drive shafts out of the diff and inspect the bearings. Its an easy enough job to do and shouldn't cost a lot.

If they find a problem you can contact fiat and have them sort it out and claim back the cost of the inspection.

Chris

I wouldn't deny your experiences but it doesn't seem logical that this issue should be confined to the convertibles.

Piccolo Nero e Bella said:

I wouldn't deny your experiences but it doesn't seem logical that this issue should be confined to the convertibles.

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Very true...

:chin:

Piccolo Nero e Bella said:

I wouldn't deny your experiences but it doesn't seem logical that this issue should be confined to the convertibles.

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I can't comment too much, other than to say there must be some structural difference engineered in to compensate for the missing metal from the hatch. I know that it is a very rigid structure.

muttleysdad said:

Hi Pigglycat

I'm still thinking it may be a drive shaft issue. It might be worth taking it to an independent garage and have them pop the drive shafts out of the diff and inspect the bearings. Its an easy enough job to do and shouldn't cost a lot.

If they find a problem you can contact fiat and have them sort it out and claim back the cost of the inspection.

Chris

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Thanks Chris, yes I have mentioned that to dealer, but that's been dismissed when it's been in for checks.

A fatigue fracture in the bodyshell (rigid structures can often also be quite brittle and fatigue-prone) would explain a lot, but I'd be surprised not to have heard more about this if it weren't just a one-off incident.

Evidence showing the presence of such a fracture, in the absence of any prior impact damage, would IMO give you a good case for rejection.

Without hard evidence, this is of course just pure speculation.

What I'd say it's more likely is a combination of an out-of-balance rotating component & excessive play in one of its supports; tyres & suspension mountings being the most obvious suspects. Excessive vibration from this type of event is extremely common in used cars of all marques and models, though it can sometimes be quite challenging to pin down. That's no excuse for a franchised dealer being unable to sort it, though.

Some designs are notoriously prone to shaking about if everything is not set up perfectly (from personal experience, the Ford Capri II/II is one such), but I've not found the 500/Panda to be particularly sensitive in this regard.

And while the 500C body is quite rigid compared to other soft-tops because of its unique design, I can vouch for a tendency to shudder in certain circumstances. A road I regularly use crosses a six-lane highway at a slight angle and the ruts caused by constant heavy traffic, diagonal to my line of travel, cause a most unpleasant, if momentary, 'shimmy' to pass through the whole car.

sounds like a type of scuttle shake that convertibles typically suffer from due to lost rigidity, not that the C is exactly a convertible but it will lack rigidity against a normal 500 I presume. My classic alfa spider suffers from it badly but lots of things have an impact on it including tyres, shocks, the condition of suspension bushes and obviously road surface, with a bit of supension fettling it can be greatly reduced, not too sure whats going on here though

Piccolo Nero e Bella said:

And while the 500C body is quite rigid compared to other soft-tops because of its unique design, I can vouch for a tendency to shudder in certain circumstances. A road I regularly use crosses a six-lane highway at a slight angle and the ruts caused by constant heavy traffic, diagonal to my line of travel, cause a most unpleasant, if momentary, 'shimmy' to pass through the whole car.

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Agree completely and aware of that tendency to shudder too, this is not what I'm getting here.

Mercky said:

sounds like a type of scuttle shake that convertibles typically suffer from due to lost rigidity, not that the C is exactly a convertible but it will lack rigidity against a normal 500 I presume. My classic alfa spider suffers from it badly but lots of things have an impact on it including tyres, shocks, the condition of suspension bushes and obviously road surface, with a bit of supension fettling it can be greatly reduced, not too sure whats going on here though

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Hi, sadly not scuttle shake. Have had a number of cars with that in the past (Spitfire anyone...) and it's definitely different (or additional) to the surface shudder described by Piccolo Nero e Bella. It's there all the time, at all speeds, all road surfaces, in gear, out of gear, coasting, under load.

jrkitching said:

What I'd say it's more likely is a combination of an out-of-balance rotating component & excessive play in one of its supports; tyres & suspension mountings being the most obvious suspects. Excessive vibration from this type of event is extremely common in used cars of all marques and models, though it can sometimes be quite challenging to pin down. That's no excuse for a franchised dealer being unable to sort it, though.

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Agree, that's where I would expect the problem to lie, but supposedly ruled out by both dealer and Fiat.

jrkitching said:

Some designs are notoriously prone to shaking about if everything is not set up perfectly (from personal experience, the Ford Capri II/II is one such), but I've not found the 500/Panda to be particularly sensitive in this regard.

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My brother-in-law has had 4x500s hatches as well as 3x current Pandas and hasn't experienced any issues at all (and he's as sensitive to this sort of thing as me).

Although you say you have mentioned drive shafts to the dealer do you believe the have checked them at all?

A way of eliminating this is to for you or a trusted garage to jack one wheel up and to actually run the car. I guess you'd have to switch the traction control off for this.

You then jack the other side up and repeat the process

At first this may appear a little "iffy" but the diff will only send power to the wheel that is up in the he air.

Stating the obvious but this does carry some risk!