Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[auto500owner]

Hi all, I’ve had my 2019 dualogic 500 for a couple of months now. Everything seems to be ok with the gearbox only thing I have noticed is that when it’s changing down from 2nd gear to 1st it makes quite a loud clicking noise that can sometimes be felt underfoot? (Especially if coming to a sharp stop) Is this something I should be concerned about? I’m from uk. TIA

 

[Jussi69]

Hello all - I have a question about the relays for dualogic.
T20 30 Amp - Start Prevention with Robotized Gearbox
T30 50 Amp - Dualogic Gearboxinterlocking Pump
T31 30 Amp - Front 12v Power Supply

Can anyone share more data so I could order these relays online as I currently dont have access to the car.

sometimes when the car has been parked overnight the pump does not prime when opening the driver door - resulting N. A couple of restarts and the robot wakes up. So could be the relays and as they are not expensive in general, I could try to replace them first.

Well
50 AMP is
670-Fiat Alfa Lancia /2009-2017 4-Pin Black Relay 1/11302/87 Omron 250002 2V 50A
30A is
FIAT 46520412
Changes the relays yesterday and added one ground cable to the cylinder block - so far she has behaved.
But as she's an old Italian Lady with temper now I got the rear licence plate lights not working - kind of fixed them already once did not find any error, but cleaning and using some WD40 helped.

 

[patatouka]

I have the same thoughts with you that the battery might be gone, it is an original Mopar battery I just tested with multimeter today with the car off it gives 12.3v which is very marginal. What I can try first is to replace a new battery anyway as the current one is 7 years old and I've ordered new AGM battery to be replaced by myself to see any different. Hope it can solve the problem otherwise I'll keep reading the posts here to get some mor

Finding anyone who can repair them at reasonable cost

 

[Jussi69]

Hello all,

So challenge returns and after start cant engage gear - stays in neutral. After couple of re-starts she comes to life.

I have tried to read the codes with Multiecuscan, but there is no option for 500 1,4 2008, however, managed to do it with Alfa OBD.

Tested device: Automatic gearbox Marelli SELESPEED CFC328 2 - with following results
P1742 found from forum "P1742 - Gear selection sensor" I found following from Alfa forums " Btw: there are sensors in cheaper for the punto with the part number 71737620 (or 71752610 for Grande Punto) which are cheaper, but it appears that all those sensors for dualogic/selespeed are the same, despite the different numbers (and prices)"
- can someone confirm that I am in right track as the number bring throttle position sensor as result from google. This sounds more reassuring https://www.sequparts.com/product/selection-clutch-sensor-fiat-dualogic-selespeed/

The Dualogic / Selespeed selection and engagement position sensors (Potentiometers) are responsible to detect the current state of the gear engagement. The clutch sensor is responsible to detect the state of the clutch. There are three of these sensors installed on the Dualogic / Selespeed unit. A faulty sensor can prevent the car to engage gears or shift.

P2914 Error intermittent P2914 - Gearbox sub-system (Shift failed) I believe this a result of the above.
Other variables according to the scan - Hydraulic circuit pressure: 48 bar, Engine speed: 824,00 rpm, Gear engaged: Neutral, Speed requested: Neutral
Gearbox Oil Temperature: 26 °C, Battery voltage: 13,40 V

Can someone confirm my opinion on P1742
Also a hint how to add old 1,4 Fiat into multiecuscan would be nice for a second opinion.

 

[Aleexc]

Hello guys
I have recently bought a 06 fiat idea whit the dualogic gearbox.
I searched the forum but couldn’t find the exact answer so here it goes

Car drives ok with a few issues
It is sometimes slow when changing gears
And the one thing that concerns me the most the pump starts too often for example
After I open the door starts as normal for a few seconds and if I leave the car at idle in neutral the pump starts every minute or so probably even more often
I suppose it loses pressure
I think the oil is a bit low too

What I want to do to prevent further problems is I want to change the fluid with new one and clean the unit a bit that plate with the piston and anything else that I can

What advice can anyone give me?
Is that pump running too often a problem?
Is changing the oil a good idea or should I just top it off? Being an old car I don’t want to pick at it too much but also I don’t want to leave it until it breaks.


Thanks a lot you guys
All the best

Alex

 

[Jussi69]

Stumbled upon this article describes common faults of the system.

Magneti Marelli Selespeed CFC328 (DUALOGIC): Italian robot - The AKPPro Magazine

Electro-hydraulic robotic transmission Magneti Marelli Selespeed CFC328 DUALOGIC

akppro.ru

There are new units sold around 100Eur e.g. autodoc but how to make sure that the ECU of Selespeed and the ecu of the car work. Like not I have
Tested device: Body Computer DELPHI 2 Hardware number: FI61BC03CL2 and Marelli SELESPEED CFC328 2 and Hardware number: CFC 328F.03.
If I invest the 1000Eur and order new robot from autodoc what are the options that it works - dont know how many combinations, there are. Will the type engine size and yar of manufacturing guarantee the match?

 

[patatouka]

Hello guys
I have recently bought a 06 fiat idea whit the dualogic gearbox.
I searched the forum but couldn’t find the exact answer so here it goes

Car drives ok with a few issues
It is sometimes slow when changing gears
And the one thing that concerns me the most the pump starts too often for example
After I open the door starts as normal for a few seconds and if I leave the car at idle in neutral the pump starts every minute or so probably even more often
I suppose it loses pressure
I think the oil is a bit low too

What I want to do to prevent further problems is I want to change the fluid with new one and clean the unit a bit that plate with the piston and anything else that I can

What advice can anyone give me?
Is that pump running too often a problem?
Is changing the oil a good idea or should I just top it off? Being an old car I don’t want to pick at it too much but also I don’t want to leave it until it breaks.


Thanks a lot you guys
All the best

Alex

Hey there,
I'll say what I know.
Try changing some gears - pump should start running after 4-5 changes but not for too long. You will need the MES scan tool to get more detail on pressure change. if the pump runs constantly beyond its usual cycles, eventually you'll burn it.

Slow change might just be that the system needs re-calibration, or you might be low on clutch surface remaining, hard to say.

If you have the 1.4 16v Idea with Selespeed you most likely have the Marelli CFF228 Computer

The Selespeed oil should be changed and topped off according to procedure using MES scan with the correct type of oil by Tutela.

To prevent further problems do a thorough check of the entire system and check for leaks in the hydraulic system (the top one). If the system has been poorly maintained it would most likely be the first one that gives out.

Changing the black "pear" is also advised as it's not that expensive and sometime can be the culprit of pump overwork

I changed the top segment of the selespeed on mine with a brand new one that I found on a parts flash sale - even though it was working, cause I noticed "no gear available" issues when the temperature was too low outside, alongside the fact that I knew that the previous owner didn't really take care of that thing properly and I didn't want to go to the route of refurbishing - but I kept it who knows. New one works great of course, smooth as butter.

Through my anecdotal measurements of highway mixed driving and some city one the clutch should be good for at least 70-80k Kilometers and more if you treat it nicely.

I hope this helps.

 

[Aleexc]

Hey there,
I'll say what I know.
Try changing some gears - pump should start running after 4-5 changes but not for too long. You will need the MES scan tool to get more detail on pressure change. if the pump runs constantly beyond its usual cycles, eventually you'll burn it.

Slow change might just be that the system needs re-calibration, or you might be low on clutch surface remaining, hard to say.

If you have the 1.4 16v Idea with Selespeed you most likely have the Marelli CFF228 Computer

The Selespeed oil should be changed and topped off according to procedure using MES scan with the correct type of oil by Tutela.

To prevent further problems do a thorough check of the entire system and check for leaks in the hydraulic system (the top one). If the system has been poorly maintained it would most likely be the first one that gives out.

Changing the black "pear" is also advised as it's not that expensive and sometime can be the culprit of pump overwork

I changed the top segment of the selespeed on mine with a brand new one that I found on a parts flash sale - even though it was working, cause I noticed "no gear available" issues when the temperature was too low outside, alongside the fact that I knew that the previous owner didn't really take care of that thing properly and I didn't want to go to the route of refurbishing - but I kept it who knows. New one works great of course, smooth as butter.

Through my anecdotal measurements of highway mixed driving and some city one the clutch should be good for at least 70-80k Kilometers and more if you treat it nicely.

I hope this helps.

It does help a lot

Thank you, i will start by changing the hydraulic oil and cleaning the whole unit first to see if there are any leaks as of now it’s all black…
Maybe change that pear also I saw it’s some sort of membrane chamber that holds pressure so maybe that’s the problem with the pump running every 30 seconds.
I don’t have nor ether afford that specific scan tool so I will try the manual/rudimentary method “disconnect the pump and so on…”

The car is for my mother in law who just passed her exam and we can’t have a car that’s about to breakdown with her on her own…

Thanks a lot I will get back here with the results

 

[neesey]

Hi guys.

I’ve also got a transmission issue with my 500 duoLogic.

Started in June but I’ve bought a new car since so it’s been sat for a little while.

I took it to fiat (such a waste of time and energy and also money as they charged me £300 for a diagnostics for something I could of worked out myself)
They quoted me £7000 to change a gearbox if they had to do that and some other things which was a whole load of nos.

They sent me a report of what they found but didn’t even go to any lengths to remove parts to check any real issues.

I’m based in leicester so if anyone can help as I’m meant to be moving house within 3weeks but short on time but would love to get this working again and sold or sell as spares

 

[jrkitching]

Hi guys.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Since you've found this thread - and thanks for posting in the right place first time - you'll know that there's unlikely to be any simple fix.

I’ve bought a new car since so it’s been sat for a little while

short on time

Reading between the lines, in your position I'd just sell it as it is. I doubt you'd end up with any more money by repairing it first, and you could easily end up a lot worse off.

If it helps, you can advertise it in the classified section of this forum for free.

Personally I'd put it on ebay; it'll likely make a fair bit more than you'll be offered by the likes of WBAC. If you do, post back here and I'll add a link to the listing on the forum.

We had a similar thread on the forum a week ago; here; you might find it of interest. That wasn't as nice a car as yours, but would likely be a much easier repair.

 

[Aleexc]

It does help a lot

Thank you, i will start by changing the hydraulic oil and cleaning the whole unit first to see if there are any leaks as of now it’s all black…
Maybe change that pear also I saw it’s some sort of membrane chamber that holds pressure so maybe that’s the problem with the pump running every 30 seconds.
I don’t have nor ether afford that specific scan tool so I will try the manual/rudimentary method “disconnect the pump and so on…”

The car is for my mother in law who just passed her exam and we can’t have a car that’s about to breakdown with her on her own…

Thanks a lot I will get back here with the results

Hello people

I have topped up the oil to the and cleaned the entire unit a bit.
Car drives very well the only thing is that the pump runs very often
So with the car idling in neutral I looked at the reservoir from beneath the car and the pump runs for 2-3 seconds the level goes down then in goes back up in about 10-15 seconds then the pump runs again lvl goes down then back up and so it keeps going

My understanding is that the pump builds pressure but then it escapes back in the reservoir
To this problem can it be that “black pear” thing?
Or a valve or what?

Thanks guys

 

[patatouka]

Hello people

I have topped up the oil to the and cleaned the entire unit a bit.
Car drives very well the only thing is that the pump runs very often
So with the car idling in neutral I looked at the reservoir from beneath the car and the pump runs for 2-3 seconds the level goes down then in goes back up in about 10-15 seconds then the pump runs again lvl goes down then back up and so it keeps going

My understanding is that the pump builds pressure but then it escapes back in the reservoir
To this problem can it be that “black pear” thing?
Or a valve or what?

Thanks guys

I strongly suggest you utilize MES, it's not that expensive to own and is totally worth it, especially for diagnosis plus it does so much other stuff for you.

 

[patatouka]

Hi guys.

I’ve also got a transmission issue with my 500 duoLogic.

Started in June but I’ve bought a new car since so it’s been sat for a little while.

I took it to fiat (such a waste of time and energy and also money as they charged me £300 for a diagnostics for something I could of worked out myself)
They quoted me £7000 to change a gearbox if they had to do that and some other things which was a whole load of nos.

They sent me a report of what they found but didn’t even go to any lengths to remove parts to check any real issues.

I’m based in leicester so if anyone can help as I’m meant to be moving house within 3weeks but short on time but would love to get this working again and sold or sell as spares

In lieu of selling the vehicle as it is - expand your search radius to people/garages that can actually understand how these things work - even if they are further away than your general area, you could reach to a better outcome than expected if you take the time and distance, it's worth a shot investigating.

 

[Mo Mo]

I have solved the problem of dropping from 5th to N myself, it took long time so I'll share what I know.
Off course, first make sure that you have the correct oil level and the pump builds pressure as it should. Then It's a fairly easy fix !
The main culprit, withe other things being fully operational, is so called "stop" solenoid. It changes the movement of gear selector shaft between 1-2 , 3-4 and R-N planes.
View attachment 418031
After you unscrew it, there is a spring loaded nipple which, when activated, protrudes into the barrel behind it to generally block the internal plane seletion barrel :
View attachment 418032
The problem is that the internal mechanism is oiled and greased, over time gunk gets under the nipple and further into the solenoid, causing it to stick. The spring is not strong enough to push back the solenoid shaft quickly, this is why sometimes people cannot engage any gear for a couple of minutes after dropping to N -it needs time. The lower the outside temp, the more likely this can happen - greasy gunk being thicker.

option 1 - quick fix - It should be possible to reach and unscrew the solenoid - 500 offers less space than my Lancia Musa , but it should be possible after removin battery holder plate. Put some foil beneath so as not to drop screws, spring and nipple. Put the car in N first. Screws are phillips , there is no pressure in this part of robot. Tighten back with care.
Clean the solenoid by slowly spraying something like WD40, then brake cleaner, rubbing alcohol etc over the little shaft, let them drop sink inside. Do it many times in turns until the shaft moves fairly freely. The liquids will drain through plug assembly. Apply brake cleaner as final, give time it to evaporate, you can even heat it up to make sure it's dry inside. At first, you might need to use a 9v battery with two cables to pop the shaft back out.Don't worry about polarity. New solenoid is pricey and there is no need to change it if it works.
While solenoid is out, also clean the nipple socket in the barrel from any old grease to prevent it from sticking.

View attachment 418033
View attachment 418034

Option 2 : Full, long term fix is to take the robot out and clean the whole "barrel" inside and then re-grease it with high quality, wide-temperature-graded synthetic grease . You can see this being done here:

screenshot:
View attachment 418035

Option 2 best made by a mechanic, unless you really know what you are doing, followed by factory calibration in MES

Of course, there might be some other underlying issues. Then it needs to be properly diagnosed and possibly overhauled.Find a mechanic whoe deals with dualogic.
Hope that Helps.

I have actually done a complete overhaul of the robot myself, it is quite a durable and bulletproof device with just a few soft-spots. It requires all components to work properly, with very little margin for error and then it will serve years on.

Hi ET Alien,

Thank you for the detailed solution. Could you tell me specifically what grease you used for the robot? Any brand names would be appreciated.

Many thanks,
Mo

 

[ET Alien]

Hi, I used hq teflon grease from a local producer, basically what you need to be looking for is low NLGI value like 1-1,5 plus wide usable temperature range ( like -30 to +130 degrees). I was also considering Mobil SHC460 but there were some supply shortages at the time, so that is what you could go with and all should be good. AFAIR I also added a few drops of gearbox oil, but that's not a must. It's been more than a year and all is working fine.Good luck with your fixes!

Hi ET Alien,

Thank you for the detailed solution. Could you tell me specifically what grease you used for the robot? Any brand names would be appreciated.

Many thanks,
Mo

 

[Phil95]

Hi everyone

Would appreciate any advice/help regarding my 2009 Fiat 500 Dualogic fault!

The gearbox slips into Neutral from Drive (with 3 beeps)
Seems to only happen when the gearbox/engine is cold, even outdoor temperature can affect it.
Doesn’t seem to happen when car exterior temp is above 12 degrees celsius…

also only faults in first gear! When at the lights or traffic setting off.

I have changed the selespeed oil because it looked black/old
(replaced it for new personas tutela transmission CS Speed oil)
With no joy

The fault codes stored are
Engine: P2299 Unknown

Gearbox: P1744 Hydraulic pressure sensor circuit
- intermittent

Gearbox P2916 Gearbox sub-system
- intermittent

Sorry for the long post

Thank you

 

[Pauldeniro]

Hi all - sorry if posting in the wrong place. I’ve got a 2009 fiat 500 Lounge 1.2 DUALOGIC - 57k miles and the automatic gear have developed an issue -

Selecting from N to Auto is fine - but when accelerating the car has started to intermittently go back into N without me even touching the auto / gear stick.

No error codes displayed.

Can anyone share any advice or point us in the right direction of what might the issue be?

Thanks for taking time to read.

P

 

[jrkitching]

Hi all - sorry if posting in the wrong place.

No problem at all - I've moved you into the specific thread we have here for dualogic issues.

And welcome to the forum, though I'm sorry it's in such unfortunate circumstances.

Unfortunately there are few easy fixes; on a 14 year old car, the transmission is likely just plain worn out. These are complex units; with time and mileage, parts wear, seals leak, electronics can go faulty. Once they start showing an intermittent fault, the likelihood is that even if it goes away or can be reset, the problem will recur with increasing frequency until the transmission just fails outright.

Changing the transmission fluid sometimes helps for a short while, but as you've already done that, there's not a great deal more I can constructively suggest. Selling the car before it gets any worse may be the least bad option. Be aware that it could fail completely at any time, so if you are going to continue to drive it, at least make sure you're subscribed to a good recovery service.

There are a small number of specialist overhaul companies which claim to be able to rebuild these transmissions, but I doubt this would be cost effective on a 2009 car.

 

[Derbyfella]

Around that 60k mileage figure again

 

[pandadig5025]

hi all have just had my dualogic fluid changed by fiat alfa specialist ,got car back noticed fluid on floor under car thought it might be left over fom filling up reservoir ,but next day pool of oil nder tank and drips of oil on alloy cover ,took back to dealer ,they blamed my irratic driving had blown fluid out of lid on tank ,which i thought was pressurised when driving .i then took car home as they said it was sorted ,next day yet more oil on floor .called dealer bring back next week will have another look ,tank still dry but still keeps loosing fluid cant see any leaks any were,has anyone else had this its driving me nuts as still leaks but before dealer cock up never leaked in 5 years and 31000 miles ,is this common ,it made a faint wirring noise going up a hill couple of weeks ago but chaging gear fine in auto and manual mode ,and also now fluid level has dropped below min level but again still driving fine no issues is it ok to undo cap and top up tank as long as i dont open drivers door and re pressurise tank thanks for your attention also this is 2007 panda 31000 miles on clock cheers.