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Old 16-08-2018   #511
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by ausabarth View Post
Thank you Jrkitching for your feedback.

I bought the car in late 2014 (it was first registered in March 2013)

While out of warranty, Australian consumer law stipulates that regardless of the warranty, a product must deliver on the service it was intended to. Failure of the actuator on a car that has done 33000km's seems to be a breach of this.

Fiat Australia have offered some goodwill but are still leaving me $4000 out of pocket. It is clear from the pure volume of posts that there is an inherent flaw with the dualogic actuator and I am surprised there has not been a mandatory recall to fix.
Hi All,

Just a quick update. I submitted a claim to the local fair trade tribunal against Fiat Australia for the costs to replace the actuator and was successful in receiving full compensation for the repair. I strongly recommend anyone who has a similar issue to follow through.

Fiat Australia seem to have a policy NOT to compromise or negotiate but the argument that the actuator failed unreasonably early was upheld and certainly worth the effort.

Happy to provide further details for anyone interested.
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Old 16-08-2018   #512
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by ausabarth View Post
I submitted a claim to the local fair trade tribunal against Fiat Australia for the costs to replace the actuator and was successful in receiving full compensation for the repair.

Wow! and great news . I'm glad to hear your persistence has been justly rewarded.

In the UK, the claim would have to be made against the supplying dealer, but whatever technical arguments you used would be equally valid.
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Old 19-08-2018   #513
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by ausabarth View Post
Hi All,

Just a quick update. I submitted a claim to the local fair trade tribunal against Fiat Australia for the costs to replace the actuator and was successful in receiving full compensation for the repair. I strongly recommend anyone who has a similar issue to follow through.
Well done on getting the resolution, which you completely deserved. It is great news.

My only concern is that others might generalise and see their situation as being just the same, or ‘32 pages of reported faults’ as the same, when they are not. I think I said this before, but three things for others to keep in mind;

- 33,000km is an unreasonably short lifespan for the actuator (which is considered a non-serviceable component and has no scheduled maintenance). The clutch is a wear item; the actuator is not.

- There is no known design flaw requiring a recall, as some actuators have performed perfectly for a ‘reasonable’ expected life (160,000km/ten years) and obviously this would be impossible if all had the same flaw.

- The actuator used on the Abarth differs greatly in design to that used on the 1.2/1.4/TwinAir versions, due to a different gearbox being fitted. Different hydraulics, relocated sensors, ECU on the gearbox instead of inside the car, etc. The actuator is more similar to that used in Dualogic versions of the Grande Punto 1.3 diesel. In principle it is the same as the FIAT 500 Dualogic, but failure modes (ways in which it might fail) are different. To pick one example - the 500 Dualogic can leak oil into the gearchange position sensor (mounted on the front) where the Abarth MTA has the sensor mounted on top where it cannot fill with oil.

Of course, it would be useful to know the detail of what actually failed within the actuator (for a later date when actuator repairs may be practical), but that discussion would deserve its own thread in the Abarth 500 forum.

-Alex
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Old 01-09-2018   #514
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Can anyone tell me what these codes are please on my daughters duel logic p1742 p060c p0720
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Old 12-09-2018   #515
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Does the Fiat Abarth 500 have the Dualogic transmission fitted? and does the Abarth suffer with any automatic box issues?
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Old 03-10-2018   #516
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by Techno View Post
Does the Fiat Abarth 500 have the Dualogic transmission fitted? and does the Abarth suffer with any automatic box issues?
The Abarth uses a version called MTA, it’s a selespeed transmission yes.
A small number of cars have issues with these boxes, the same as any manufacturer. They are cheaper to fix than the VW DSG boxes used on the GTIs and judging by the issues that VW have had over the past 8 years, more reliable!
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #517
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

I have a 2009 500 1.2 Lounge and have been having this immediate failure of the system when it is running - invariably at an extremely busy junction of course. It seems to happen when the car is running in 5th and is automatically changing down. the car beeps and then I come to a standstill. The RAC suggested that if I disconnect the battery and then reconnect it the car will start again - and it does! Not ideal in the rush hour traffic of course! I have read through a lot of the responses and I am a little concerned. The car is a 2009 plate but it has only done 29,000 miles. I would prefer not to have to spend a lot of money on fixing this - the car is worth around £3,500 if it is in good condition. I am also having problems as the Bluetooth doesn't work and the steering wheel controls are not particularly responsive, working only intermittently! The Bluetooth and the steering wheel issues are in reality, cosmetic issues but the car not driving is a danger to me and to my passengers. If this is a fatal issue then I need to get it fixed or get rid of the car - and get another 500 but perhaps go manual rather than auto. Any thoughts?
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #518
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

If it was mine, and there is no sign of fluid leaks, I would do the following:
1. Ensure battery is in good order
2. Check earth connectors in rear lamps (search forum for info)
3. Check (or replace) brake pedal switch (search forum for info)
4. Check for the 500 well-known hatch wiring problem (search forum for info)

Other checks would be
a) that the pump motor is operating when expected (e.g fires up for {x} seconds when opening driver's door)
b) the pump makes constant noise while operating, not a wheezing, variable or grating sound.

{x} is usually between 6 and 15 seconds, depending on residual pressure.

If none of these make a difference, or there are leaks, I would start looking for a Dualogic expert locally.

Getting error codes read is useful, but only if the person interpreting them understands what to look for, and then only if read using the right kit - Fiat's own software or MultiECUScan are the only two I would rely on.
Other readers may confuse more than they help.
With MultiECUScan, you could also identify a failed accumulator or an overall pressure problem, or even a failing clutch plate (unlikely but possible at your mileage)

If you're lucky then it's just a corroded earth on your O/S rear light (free to fix) or a brake switch (cheap but fiddly)
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #519
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by marcbgreen View Post
Any thoughts?
I'm sorry to hear of your difficulties.

This thread rarely wanders far from the first page, and it's disappointing to see it back at the top once again. It's a shame most folks only find it after they've got a problem, and not before they've committed to a dualogic purchase.

The answers are all in this thread.

If it were mine, I'd see if it could be cheaply put into a condition whereby you could get a reasonable price for it as a trade in (your valuation isn't far off the mark) and leave your problems behind on some dealer's forecourt. At least any subsequent purchaser would have some redress when the problem inevitably resurfaces (and the cost of putting this right properly will likely be greater than anything you'd lose by trading in now).

A private sale is a matter for your own conscience.

Autocar had this one nailed right from the start - here's a review from the early days of the 500. The prices are amusingly out of date!
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #520
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Hey ...

I am also new desperately seeking any advise.
I am the owner of a 2013 fiat 500 0.9 twinair dualogic.

I was on a motor way doing 60PMG when my car transmission cut out.
I had to swerve into a verge and still not sure How I alive.

The only pre signs to this was my car screaming in 2nd gear going into 3rd in the auto mode. Sometimes it would take a good 10 seconds.

When I took my car into Desira (Fiat franchise) they told me I needed a new actuator or gearbox or both! The cost - £2400.00. a test also was needed £300.00 to confirm the actual problem? A car only done 40K full service historyand lightly used?? So thats when I contacted FIAT HQ so make a complaint.

They advised me to have this further diagnostic, and I had no choice. I called 3 other garages who declined the work and refused to look at this type of car.

after a few days Desira called to say that my car was now not showing any errors.
Even though they had said it was the actuator or gearbox or both?!

So now I ask .. what is wrong with it then!!! They said they would have to take a guess and not a fact and go with Clutch and flywheel but are not surer at all and the car requires a 7hr labour strip down .. The cost £760.00!!!!

This is where I currently am. FIAT UK not giving a flying Toss and I am very upset and angry.

I have now reached breaking point and after reading so many of the same problems I am thinking of building a case and going to the Motor Ombudsmen.

How does a Fiat specialist tech no know whats wrong with a car??
are they hiding something??
Is this 7hr labour strip down to get rid of me?

any answers are highly appreciated.

Regards
Upset Fiat owner
Frankie
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #521
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Hi Frankie.
And sorry this issue has brought you here.

Ok.. so the servicing..
all FIAT maindealer? The place you have now gone to??

This system is more needy than a conventional auto.. with its own specific oil. Etc

Lots of indy garages wont touch them.. so there is a chance it is low on its SELESPEED FLUID.

When it failed.. what happened.. went into Neutral.. and wouldnt engage drive?

Who recovered it.. did they perform plug.in diagnostics?

All good info for us to summise what is likely to be going on

Charlie
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #522
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Hi Charlie.

Thanks so much for coming back to me.

FIAT have completed all services yes but not the garage I got it from.
I got it from a different location.

They said that all fluid/Oil levels have been checked.
When It failed the car went into Neutral. Beeping away at me saying Transmission error see handbook.

I turned my car off, then on again and got approx 10 miles until it done it again at a roundabout. again another 10 miles and almost home. It done it approx 6 times but the first being the worst I went the backroads and kept at 20MPH as was very scared.

Diagnostics showed an error with transmission they said which related to the gearbox actuator but as said now .. no error messages showing.

Best Regards
Frankie
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #523
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Ok.

So it SHOULD have been serviced properly.. to the book..

So NO easy get.out from FIAT..

Being a 2013 car and with no warranty implied...
If it was my twinair
I would find an alternative repairer..

An Alfaromeo specialist will have seen these gearbox things for 20 years.

Have the correct kit..

And labour rates will be significantly lower.

Do continue to pester FIAT UK for assistance.. but you may wait a considerable time.

Charlie
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Last edited by varesecrazy; 2 Weeks Ago at 17:56.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #524
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Just a couple of quick thoughts:

Selespeed fluid should never get low unless there is a leak. If there is a leak, repair or replacement are the only real options.

"No errors" almost always means someone not using the right tool to read the codes, or that someone has cleared the codes and there is not currently an error condition.

Many "dualogic" problems are actually also suffered by non-Dualogic cars, but the problem had less effect because, for example, a manual gearbox won't stop working because your brake lights are faulty. A Dualogic car relies on knowing when you are braking, and will try to choose the safest option when it can't tell, i.e. go into Neutral.

Similarly, fluctuating voltage from a nearly-dead battery might throw a few weird dashboard errors on a Manual car, but will disable a Dualogic one.

A worn out clutch plate on a Manual car gives lots of warning before it gives up completely. A Dualogic will reach a point where it knows the clutch is beyond useful life and will try to stop using it. (This also seems to often be interpreted as a Dualogic failure.)

I find it scary to think how many perfectly good actuators have been scrapped because of pathetically bad diagnosis of basic electrical issues. Also ECUs. Or even whole cars...

Trouble is, mention that you have a Dualogic, Selespeed or Semi-auto gearbox and a lot of places run for the hills.

It could be a good time for various Dualogic-aware forum members to put together a list of things to check. (I'm planning on doing some experiments on a spare actuator when the weather is warmer, but that won't help right now)

I'll gladly chip in if someone wants to open a new thread for Dualogic diagnostics, but I think this one could be a bit too negative to point newbies to, especially when someone has just told them they need a new actuator. More so if they only really need a new battery. Or brake switch.
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Old 6 Days Ago   #525
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by FrancescaM View Post
Hi Charlie.

Thanks so much for coming back to me.

FIAT have completed all services yes but not the garage I got it from.
I got it from a different location.

They said that all fluid/Oil levels have been checked.
When It failed the car went into Neutral. Beeping away at me saying Transmission error see handbook.

I turned my car off, then on again and got approx 10 miles until it done it again at a roundabout. again another 10 miles and almost home. It done it approx 6 times but the first being the worst I went the backroads and kept at 20MPH as was very scared.

Diagnostics showed an error with transmission they said which related to the gearbox actuator but as said now .. no error messages showing.

Best Regards
Frankie
I find the Dualogic on the Euro 6 TwinAir a nice set up and very smooth.
There is no servicing requirements listed for the Dualogic unit, so on servicing I doubt Fiat even looked at the level of the oil in the unit.
Also to note, you have to depressurise the unit to check the level.
Normally the unit only drops out of gear, due to low hydraulic pressure in the gearbox control unit or an electrical fault – think brake pedal sensor and gear lever unit.


If the error suggested the gearbox control unit, then it’s either leaking or the pump is failing/has an issue.


When you first get in the car in the morning and you open the driver´s door, you should hear the pump run. How many seconds is it running for? Should be around 5-7 Seconds to prime the unit. The pump has brushes and doesn´t last forever.

The accumulator (https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=s...5986&sku=64964) also doesn´t last for ever.



As suggested an Alfa specialist should be up for the work, as they see Selespeed gearbox control units all the time and this is what the Dualogic unit is.

I have check out the location of the dealer and Google suggests that your Suffolk/Norfolk way.

I notice this Fiat/Alfa specialist comes highly rated on Google - https://www.thefiatandalfaromeospecialists.co.uk/ They are in Bury St Edmunds

https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=s...510&sku=256809
Actuator

https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=s...510&sku=256809
Pump

https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=s...509&sku=270513
Complete unit

Above are the links with Shop4Parts gives you the reference to the unit parts. Shop4parts used to do the complete gearbox control unit for a lot cheaper.. If you donate to the forum, you get a 10% discount code for Shop4parts

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-500-0-9-Twin-Air-Selespeed-Repair-Seals-Dualogic-Gearbox-semi-auto-Actuator/223318690101?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.M BE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140107083358%26meid%3D5bcd9c e2a8ee466681a3bff2ec8a50c7%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D3 %26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D222923717129%26itm%3D22331869010 1&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850
This guy on eBay is able to sell you a repair kit for the actuator or is able to recondition the unit for you… So if the Specialist is unable to… perhaps they can remove it and send it for reconditioning?

The gearbox control unit can be removed and replaced in a couple of hours by a competent DIY mechanic with the multiscan software… So keep in mind it isn´t rocket science
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