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Old 09-08-2017   #376
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by Barney2017 View Post
Anyone think an Alfa Giulietta is a better car? Are they more reliable and simple @alexGS? Anything in-particular to look out for if buying second hand?
Lol, well, I like our 2008 500 because it's reliable and simple. I wonder if your repair shop has tried changing the gearbox oil yet (not the CS Speed hydraulic fluid, the gear oil in the box itself).

We have a 2015 Alfa Romeo Giulietta as well, it's the improved series-II model (better seats and interior equipment). Not much seems to go wrong but check the engine performs as expected without coughs and sneezes. There were some MultiAir problems on early cars (a piece of the valve gear would come unscrewed) and the manual QV model often has a reluctant gearchange and gear whine due to bearing problems. I'd also like to point out that the TCT gearchange is slower than Dualogic (squeeze a paddle and it takes a good three seconds to make the gearchange) and tends to fumble on hills, hunting up and down. It primarily behaves as an automatic but isn't a very good one, needs three different modes to try and cover all driving conditions... and often ends up in the wrong gear anyway. Some clunking and shunting at low speeds reminiscent of older Selespeeds, which we don't get in our Dualogic 500.

I wouldn't call a Giulietta 'simple'! However it is a bit less complicated than the Golf 7 (2014 model) that I owned before; that's the most sophisticated hatchback in the world (mine had radar cruise down to a stop, self-steering, self-braking, auto handbrake, 7-speed DSG always in the right gear etc.) but it was brewing many sophisticated new faults under its skin. I've never seen 200+ fault codes on a car before! The main one was that the DSG clutches had reached the end of their life at 75,000km. Engine, brakes, steering all faulty. Even the reversing camera had been temporarily faulty a few times!

I guess I've given jrkitching something to do here in deleting this post, as it's not really on-topic for the thread - hopefully @Barney2017 sees it first.

-Alex
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Last edited by alexGS; 09-08-2017 at 13:59.
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Old 09-08-2017   #377
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by alexGS View Post
I guess I've given jrkitching something to do here in deleting this post, as it's not really on-topic for the thread - hopefully @Barney2017 sees it first.
If I deleted everything that was drifing off topic after 27 pages, I'd be here all day!

In any case, you're making a relevant comparison between the 500 dualogic and an auto box in a different Fiat group product, which seems pretty much on topic to me anyhow .
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Old 15-08-2017   #378
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by Barney2017 View Post
Update time:

The specialist in Auckland then made some adjustments and "fixes" to the neutral solenoid. As a result, the shifting into neutral issue went away altogether (again, they tested it every morning and it stopped shifting into neutral...Consistent testing).

Confirmation of the following for those that are interested:

- Fluid level is fine (confirmed)
- Pressure is fine and consistent (confirmed, they have been monitoring it)
- Clutch doesn't seem to be dragging and works as it should so far
- Seems to be changing gears and driving smoothly (for a Dualogic...lol)
- It generally only shifted into neutral in auto-mode (can't remember if I had already mentioned it - Manual mode is generally driver down-shifted I guess, so no issues there)

Let me know what you think Dualogic gurus?

Will keep you all posted.

Cheers,

Barney

Barney, first off I think it's great that you got back to the forum to let us know in detail what may be a resolution for you! So many people tells us their Dualogic issues, get ideas and then you never hear from them again.

Sounds like you have certainly found a company that if they don't understand the dualogic (selespeed) system, they have been happy to put in the time and get further expert advice. I have a feeling that this is one of the main issues. Generally to fix the issue, the whole gearbox control module is usually replaced because the garage (usually a Fiat Dealer) has no idea how to fix the issue.

You confirm that the fluid level is fine - no actuator leaks - and that the pressure is fine and consistent - good pump and pressure vessel... These are the main issues that people have on higher mileage cars.

It is quite possible that this is a solenoid or sensor issue that can be cured by cleaning or adjustment. Lets face it, there have been one or two people on this thread who have complained of the same symptoms on virtually brand new cars.

Synchro wear would be very unusual at this mileage. The clutch release fork can bend or the pressure plate wears, but again this is unusual on a low mileage car.

Only time will tell I suppose if this has been a reliable fix.. We would love to hear back in six months if this has been the case. Otherwise Shop4Parts can supply a new gearbox control unit from Fiat and UPS this to NZ for 1052 all in ($1867 NZ) in 5-8 working days, which is i suspect quicker and cheaper than a local supplier!

I do feel it's a shame that the standard line here is to sell the car! Generally hydraulic based parts don't last the lifetime of cars, so I am not sure why we expect this unit to either. A number of these units fail prematurely, but I guess small compared to the number of dualogic sales (Dualogic = 5% for hatchback and 10% of convertible second hand 500 sales currently in the UK). If you take this long running thread as a comparison - perhaps two new complaints of failure per page - well its on page 26, so roughly 52 failures (I could go through and count, but I can't be bothered) - This is not a high number and non enthusiasts only find forums when they have a issue.

Also Barney, the Alfa forums for the Giulietta make a 500 Dualogic seem totally reliable and cheap to run ;-)
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Last edited by p6baseunit; 15-08-2017 at 02:49.
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Old 16-08-2017   #379
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by p6baseunit View Post
Barney, first off I think it's great that you got back to the forum to let us know in detail what may be a resolution for you! So many people tells us their Dualogic issues, get ideas and then you never hear from them again.

Sounds like you have certainly found a company that if they don't understand the dualogic (selespeed) system, they have been happy to put in the time and get further expert advice. I have a feeling that this is one of the main issues. Generally to fix the issue, the whole gearbox control module is usually replaced because the garage (usually a Fiat Dealer) has no idea how to fix the issue.

You confirm that the fluid level is fine - no actuator leaks - and that the pressure is fine and consistent - good pump and pressure vessel... These are the main issues that people have on higher mileage cars.

It is quite possible that this is a solenoid or sensor issue that can be cured by cleaning or adjustment. Lets face it, there have been one or two people on this thread who have complained of the same symptoms on virtually brand new cars.

Synchro wear would be very unusual at this mileage. The clutch release fork can bend or the pressure plate wears, but again this is unusual on a low mileage car.

Only time will tell I suppose if this has been a reliable fix.. We would love to hear back in six months if this has been the case. Otherwise Shop4Parts can supply a new gearbox control unit from Fiat and UPS this to NZ for 1052 all in ($1867 NZ) in 5-8 working days, which is i suspect quicker and cheaper than a local supplier!

I do feel it's a shame that the standard line here is to sell the car! Generally hydraulic based parts don't last the lifetime of cars, so I am not sure why we expect this unit to either. A number of these units fail prematurely, but I guess small compared to the number of dualogic sales (Dualogic = 5% for hatchback and 10% of convertible second hand 500 sales currently in the UK). If you take this long running thread as a comparison - perhaps two new complaints of failure per page - well its on page 26, so roughly 52 failures (I could go through and count, but I can't be bothered) - This is not a high number and non enthusiasts only find forums when they have a issue.

Also Barney, the Alfa forums for the Giulietta make a 500 Dualogic seem totally reliable and cheap to run ;-)
Hi,

Not a problem haha - I aim to keep everyone posted with any further updates/fixes (if ever required).

I was indeed lucky that my transmission shop (in the end) made the right decision to outsource to a specialist in Auckland, instead of running round in circles as they were for the previous 3 or so months prior.

Yeah, so no fluid leaks, consistent fluid levels, pressure is fine and consistent and so on.

According to the specialist, they fixed the neutral solenoid "and made a few adjustments to it". It stopped shifting into neutral after they did this. As well as this, they did an EOL calibration each time the issue occurred (as it wasn't slipping into neutral, but rather shifting into neutral*).

Yeah, no synchro wear I believe, as it doesn't seem to make any grinding noises when driving cold or anything - Shifts and drives like a charm. Unsure with regards to the clutch release fork bending and pressure plate wear - However, it seems to drive and engage well.

Have driven it for approx two weeks and have tried to simulate it shifting into neutral (so far so good, no neutral shifting...Is that even a thing? Bahahaha).

As I say, will keep everyone posted, as if I can make this Dualogic neutral shifting issue a much easier and quicker repair process for someone else, then all the better.

Thanks for the "Shop4Parts" link - It certainly would be quicker and cheaper than a local supplier for sure - Although, I am hoping it is never needed!

Luckily, I have my trusty Rover 75 V6 that has kept me going while the Fiat was getting fixed (somehow it has been far more reliable than the Fiat...For a sixth of the price).

"The Alfa forums for the Giulietta make a 500 Dualogic seem totally reliable and cheap to run" - Good to know hahahaha...Best I don't go near one, was thinking about buying another Merc W211 E500 instead (best car I ever owned).

Thanks
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Last edited by Barney2017; 16-08-2017 at 11:28.
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Old 31-08-2017   #380
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Come on guys it's been too long since Dualogic issues on this forum!

Well i am happy to say my dualogic box started going into neutral under hard and demanding upshifts and downshifts (like from 5th to 2nd or 2nd to 5th) without any warning lights or leaking oil. It's probably not fatal, just the wear and tear so maybe 2 years before it breaks completely! =)

So will keep an eye on it for now!
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Old 01-09-2017   #381
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Our 1.4 500c gave us the gear not available message last week and dumped some oil on the driveway, The dealer has just reported that it needs a new selespeed actuator total cost 1,500!!!! We love the car but that's outrageous.
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Old 04-09-2017   #382
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Hi,

I have fiat Bravo T-jet with M20 dualogic gearbox.(CFC300)
the gears shifting is very jerky and sometimes may stuck in gear or jump to neutral.
hydrulic fluid level has been checked and adjustments for the clutch using the examiner.
the mechanic suggest to replace the clutch (76000 km).
here is the parameters I output from multiecuscan:
gear/engage position: 18.821mm
selection position: 102.564mm
clutch pressure plate travel:18.336mm
clutch pressure plate reference:19.392mm
clutch engaged position(self-adjusted):17.232
PIS spacer closed position(self-adjusted):5.352

please advise is the clutch need replacement.
thanks
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Old 04-09-2017   #383
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by Lummers View Post
Our 1.4 500c gave us the gear not available message last week and dumped some oil on the driveway, The dealer has just reported that it needs a new selespeed actuator total cost 1,500!!!! We love the car but that's outrageous.
Well 1050 is the Fiat retail price of the actuator + 3 hours labour + 20 for the litre of oil and VAT gets you to around that figure.

Basically buy the actuator from Shop4parts for 632 and then get the car to a Fiat or Alfa specialist - https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=s...510&sku=256336

That should be straight forward as your actuator is leaking..

The figure to fix for example the DSG box on a mark 6 or 7 Golf is more than double this figure. These robotic semi auto gearboxes are not cheap to fix period.
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Last edited by p6baseunit; 04-09-2017 at 21:20.
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Old 04-09-2017   #384
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by asafvak View Post
Hi,

I have fiat Bravo T-jet with M20 dualogic gearbox.(CFC300)
the gears shifting is very jerky and sometimes may stuck in gear or jump to neutral.
hydrulic fluid level has been checked and adjustments for the clutch using the examiner.
the mechanic suggest to replace the clutch (76000 km).

please advise is the clutch need replacement.
thanks
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First off the Fiat 500 doesn't get the dualogic setup on the M20 gearbox. This gearbox is a 6 speed and the 500 has a more basic set up of a different Selespeed actuator on the standard 500 5 speed gearbox.

The Fiat Bravo set up is way more complicated than the 500 dualogic version and gets a 6 speed box. It is claimed to give a very smooth drive when working correctly.

My second observation is, I would expect the clutch to last 80000km to 120000km on average depending on city only driving or a mix of motorway (less clutch work) so your clutch could be nearing the end of it's life.

But regardless a worn clutch will not explain jerky gear shifts or the gearbox dropping into N. Can you explain what you mean by getting "stuck in gear"

This will be a selespeed issue! But the Fiat 500 uses a more basic set up on a 5 speed box

Your best bet is to take this car to an Alfa Specialist, as they see the same set up on various Alfas.
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Last edited by p6baseunit; 04-09-2017 at 23:07.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #385
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Waited 6 weeks for Fiat to supply Shop4parts with a gearbox control module - complete unit and it arrived yesterday. The car is perfectly ok at the moment, but it will be kept in my workshop until needed. To dispel any myths, it comes pre fill with oil and should be an easy swap out for any competent home mechanic! Having donated 15 to the forum for the discount code, I then got 140 of the total order, should have done that ages ago!
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #386
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

The TwinAir dualogic will be 4 years old in December and has 28000miles on the clock. The gearbox has been faultless in this time. The car had new gas shock absorbers all round and top mounts a year ago, a drop link and one coil pack. It drives as it did when I collected it from Fiat and looks around 6 months old!
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