Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[chris3234]

Re: 500 acutator problems

The gear box in the car is actually a manual gearbox but with a little robot that control's and moves the gear selector
The actuator ise the part the moves the selector if i remember correctly faults with the system are sadly far too common a search of the forum will show this

 

[jrkitching]

Re: 500 acutator problems

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Sorry to hear about your problem; the good news is that you're one of the lucky ones who's getting their actuator replaced under warranty. It would otherwise have been a four figure bill.

There's no reson to suppose the replacement will last any longer than the first one did; something you might wish to bear in mind when deciding how long to keep the car.

 

[p6baseunit]

Re: 500 acutator problems

There's no reson to suppose the replacement will last any longer than the first one did; something you might wish to bear in mind when deciding how long to keep the car.

Our TwinAir dualogic is 4 1/2 years old with no gearbox issues so far.
I have a new gearbox control module in my workshop for when it’s needed

It is a hydraulic computer controlled clutch operator and gear selector, bolted to a manual gearbox and generally are trouble free for many years.
The clutch itself on the 1.2 can cause trouble before you would expect a clutch to fail (40000miles or less), the twinair clutch is a stronger unit.
In reliability terms they as reliable as the other offerings of automated manual units... think Citroën or Smart. VW DSG boxes have a very poor reputation and are way more expensive to fix. So they are reliable, but not as trouble free generally as a manual car etc. I would expect to see 5-8 years before it needs fixing.
It’s a hydraulic unit with an electric pump, so they do need servicing (since Fiat offer no service parts, other than the accumulator, pump, actuator - read replacing) during the life of the car.

 

[p6baseunit]

Re: 500 acutator problems

faults with the system are sadly far too common a search of the forum will show this

You mean this long running thread with about 60 individual issues/complaints!
Fiat sells thousands of dualogic 500s in UK.

 

[p6baseunit]

will my car be ok now in the long run, also what the hell`s a software update.

any info would be appreciatted,,,thanks...

In theory, so long as Fiat diagnosed the correct issue, the auto box (dualogic gearbox control) should be good for at least 5-8 years. Occasionally the pump fails and on the 1.2 the clutch fails earlier than you might expect (no different to the manual).
The gearbox control unit is a hydraulic unit which does require parts during the life of the car.

Currently the complete control unit is sold by Shop4parts - https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=22509&sku=270513
And it requires around 3 hours for a specialist Fiat garage to fit and set up.

I notice the cost of this unit has gone up by £100 in the last 6 months - I purchased a spare for £718 (including forum discount) in September.

 

[Mercky]

I’m sure the lifespan has a lot to do with conditions the car is regularly driven in, ie, lots of stop start traffic versus longer clear runs

 

[chris3234]

Re: 500 acutator problems

You mean this long running thread with about 60 individual issues/complaints!
Fiat sells thousands of dualogic 500s in UK.

And people on this forum probably make up less then 10% of people who buy fiat car's
So the ammont of people with faults with the system Vs those with other faults are representative
How many other issues do you see raised as often especially given how few cars will have the dual logic box Vs those with a manual gearbox

 

[p6baseunit]

Re: 500 acutator problems

Last time I did a national search on Autotrader it suggested 1 in 20 500s are Dualogic.
4700 second hand 500s available and 236 Dualogic 500s at the time of looking.

That is not a small number when Fiat sell 40000-50000 500s a year.
If you look through this thread on the forum, there are generally one to two different complaints or issues per page... well this is page 29 and I reckon there are 60 or so pissed off people here? In the scheme of things, this is hardly an issue for the manufacturer.
Outside of this forum, issues with Fiat 500 Dualogic gearboxes hardly gets a mention...
A few issues raised with dualogic boxes on honest johns review, but there is a massive list of other reported issues.

People generally only search out forums looking for a resolution

As for other issues, how about 1.2 engine power issues/hill starts, door handles breaking, wiring loom failures in the rear tail gate, stop and start issues, front suspension top mount issues/bearing failure, master/slave clutch hydraulic issues on manual cars

 

[chris3234]

Re: 500 acutator problems

Last time I did a national search on Autotrader it suggested 1 in 20 500s are Dualogic.
4700 second hand 500s available and 236 Dualogic 500s at the time of looking.

That is not a small number when Fiat sell 40000-50000 500s a year.
If you look through this thread on the forum, there are generally one to two different complaints or issues per page... well this is page 29 and I reckon there are 60 or so pissed off people here? In the scheme of things, this is hardly an issue for the manufacturer.
Outside of this forum, issues with Fiat 500 Dualogic gearboxes hardly gets a mention...
A few issues raised with dualogic boxes on honest johns review, but there is a massive list of other reported issues.

People generally only search out forums looking for a resolution

As for other issues, how about 1.2 engine power issues/hill starts, door handles breaking, wiring loom failures in the rear tail gate, stop and start issues, front suspension top mount issues/bearing failure, master/slave clutch hydraulic issues on manual cars

Just as many dual logic issues as issues with door handles
Given how to door handles are in every car
Dual logic is what less then 1/4 of cars sold

 

[jrkitching]

Re: 500 acutator problems

This is a different magnitude of problem compared to the all too common door handle and hatch wiring faults as it will likely cost at least ten times as much to fix, and at the time of writing there is no known low cost permanent diy repair. So even if the chance of one of these 'boxes failing is a tenth of that of a door handle coming adrift, the impact on lifetime ownership costs will be at least as great.

It's an issue I believe anyone contemplating ownership of an out-of-warranty dualogic should be aware of; whether it's a dealbreaker depends on the depth of your emergency pocket and your attitude to risk. If an unexpected four figure repair bill would leave you in serious hardship, I'd suggest you look for something else.

The number of folks who deal with intermittent dualogic faults by trading in would also lead me to advise any prospective secondhand purchasers to get a proper inspection by a fiat transmission specialist prior to purchase.

 

[p6baseunit]

Re: 500 acutator problems

So even if the chance of one of these 'boxes failing is a tenth of that of a door handle coming adrift, the impact on lifetime ownership costs will be at least as great.

It's an issue I believe anyone contemplating ownership of an out-of-warranty dualogic should be aware of; whether it's a dealbreaker depends on the depth of your emergency pocket and your attitude to risk. If an unexpected four figure repair bill would leave you in serious hardship, I'd suggest you look for something else.

The point I was trying to make, was that these costs are inherent with any hybrid type automatic gearbox. You only have to look up VW DSG problem to see thousands of complaints. I don’t think the Fiat units are particularly unreliable, it’s just that no automatic gearbox is as reliable as a manual.
Also the costs for fixing it aren’t particularly high. Honda had over £4K off me to fix the auto gearbox on a 5 year old CRV with 40k miles on the clock.

 

[jrkitching]

Re: 500 acutator problems

The point I was trying to make, was that these costs are inherent with any hybrid type automatic gearbox. You only have to look up VW DSG problem to see thousands of complaints. I don’t think the Fiat units are particularly unreliable, it’s just that no automatic gearbox is as reliable as a manual.
Also the costs for fixing it aren’t particularly high. Honda had over £4K off me to fix the auto gearbox on a 5 year old CRV with 40k miles on the clock.

I'd agree with all of that, except perhaps for describing an unexpected £1k+ repair bill as not particularly high . It would certainly blow a large hole in my motoring budget!

 

[p6baseunit]

Re: 500 acutator problems

except perhaps for describing an unexpected £1k+ repair bill as not particularly high . It would certainly blow a large hole in my motoring budget!

It’s not high compared to a £29k Honda CRV costing me £4K 5 years into ownership.. the two Fiat 500s that we have are like budget motoring compared to the Honda and a string of BMWs we have had the past 10 years.

I was making a comparison to say what VW would want to fix an older DSG box

Lol by the time we got to 4 years of ownership of an X3 and out of warranty, the annual servicing was becoming £1k with BMW!

 

[ahmett]

Just wanted to let you guys know that after my experiences with the Fiat 500 Dualogic, my Mini Cooper D is a Manual and oh am I happy! No more potential 4 figure bills on the gearbox for me!

 

[p6baseunit]

Just wanted to let you guys know that after my experiences with the Fiat 500 Dualogic, my Mini Cooper D is a Manual and oh am I happy! No more potential 4 figure bills on the gearbox for me!

Yes and auto BMW minis are very expensive (multiple thousands) to fix when the auto box goes wrong in later years.
The mini is a nice car though

 

[chris3234]

Just wanted to let you guys know that after my experiences with the Fiat 500 Dualogic, my Mini Cooper D is a Manual and oh am I happy! No more potential 4 figure bills on the gearbox for me!

Keep an eye well ear on the engine for a rattle coming from the chain those engine's have a habit of chains snapping and destroying the engine ?

 

[aparsonson]

If I may I'd like to add my 2p worth. I have a suspicion that alot of Dualogic failures may be caused by the clutch action becoming very stiff as the car ages.

This is a well documented problem on older JTD Alfa's (147/156/GT) I owned a JTD 147 for 6yrs and it ate clutch slave and master cylinders. I had 3 sets during the time I had the car. This was caused by the clutch fork partially seizing on it's bushes and making the clutch action incredibly heavy. It would get worse when hot. I also picked up a broken thrust bearing because of this. It also made gear changes very notchy, I suspect because the hydraulics just couldn't supply enough force to fully release the clutch. One can google stiff/hard JTD clutch and get hundreds of hits.

Many people suggested dribbling oil down the clutch fork shaft to lubricate the bottom bush but in the end the only way to fix it was to replace the fork and bushes.

I thought it was limited to Alfa's only but my GF's 1.2 Pop has started exhibiting the same kind of behaviour although it's not as 'set in concrete' heavy as the 147 was.

I imagine that the dualogic hydraulics having to contend with a heavy and stiff clutch action might easily shorten the life of the unit.

 

[crd]

Hello guys,

Last year I have bought a second hand Fiat 500 dualogic, 0.9 l engine, 2011.
Recently I am experiencing going in N, while driving, red warning light and impossibility of changing the gear at all. After embarassing pulling over, emergency blinkers on, stopping and restarting the engine all goes back to normal. This has happen twice within 3 days time.
After reading this thread, I need to basic understand the whole gearbox - actuator system and I would like to get some skematics/ exploded view/detailed view of it, if someone could point me towards a website or is willing to share the above...? I would much appreciate it.

Thank you.

 

[p6baseunit]

If I may I'd like to add my 2p worth. I have a suspicion that alot of Dualogic failures may be caused by the clutch action becoming very stiff as the car ages.

This is a well documented problem on older JTD Alfa's (147/156/GT) I owned a JTD 147 for 6yrs and it ate clutch slave and master cylinders.

I thought it was limited to Alfa's only but my GF's 1.2 Pop has started exhibiting the same kind of behaviour although it's not as 'set in concrete' heavy as the 147 was.

I imagine that the dualogic hydraulics having to contend with a heavy and stiff clutch action might easily shorten the life of the unit.

I wasn´t aware this is an issue with the 1.2! Clutch failure before you would assume the clutch should be warn out ... Yes

 

[p6baseunit]

Hello guys,

Last year I have bought a second hand Fiat 500 dualogic, 0.9 l engine, 2011.
Recently I am experiencing going in N, while driving, red warning light and impossibility of changing the gear at all. After embarassing pulling over, emergency blinkers on, stopping and restarting the engine all goes back to normal. This has happen twice within 3 days time.
After reading this thread, I need to basic understand the whole gearbox - actuator system and I would like to get some skematics/ exploded view/detailed view of it, if someone could point me towards a website or is willing to share the above...? I would much appreciate it.

Thank you.

Did you buy this privately or through a dealer?
I assume privately! Otherwise take it straight back to the dealer, as this is a relatively expensive fix for an 7 year old 500!

How many miles has this car done?

Generally I don´t think the forum can provide you with skematics etc
Your car will be the TwinAir 85 with a manual gearbox and clutch.
The Dualogic control unit is a hydraulic computer controlled unit that operates the clutch and gear change. It bolts directly to the top of the gearbox, underneath the battery area. No automatic is as reliable as a manual car unfortunately and around the 5-7 year mark the Dualogic unit seems to need servicing. Unfortunately in the case of Fiat, they don´t provide any spare parts to service the hydraulic actuator.... New parts only are available or there are a couple of people in the UK that offer reconditioned units on eBay.

Unlike most other automatic cars, replacing the gearbox control unit is within the scope of a competent home mechanic or any Alfa/Fiat Specialist.

The unit can be bought from Shop4Parts (10% discount is available when you donate to the forum) and it´s a straight swap, with the new unit even containing the hydraulic oil etc. The ECUmultiscan software is needed to set it up on the car.

First thing you need to find out is, is the actuator actually leaking fluid? Likely at 7 years old - if not you need the multi scan software to see what the units error is. If the actuator isn´t leaking and the car is a high mileage one, then perhaps the clutch needs replacement.

Generally, if the car drops out of gear whilst driving (for example driving along in 4th or 5th without the need to change gear).. then it is a system pressure failure - look for a leak. If it drops into N on trying to change gear - It´s either a pressure issue or a clutch if the car is high mileage.

If there are no leaks and the fluid is not low (only low if leaking or the plastic oil tank is cracked) than the pressure accumulator or pump could be warn.

The pump should sound/operate when you open the drivers door (after leaving the car a little while) and should run for around 3 to 5 seconds. You should also hear the pump quietly operate on every 5 gear changes - you can try this stationary with the engine running - move the gear change from N to R to D to R to D etc and every 5th change the pump will buzz quietly in the back ground.

http://https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=22509&sku=270513

If the actuator is indeed leaking - it is a false economy just to replace that, when it is 2/3 of the cost of the complete unit and the sum of the parts is way more expensive than the complete unit.

The price of the complete control unit has gone up in recent months (now £1016) and is available from the above link at a discount to the main dealer charge.

There are a couple of highly rated people on eBay who offer reconditioned gearbox control units for around £400 fitted. Remember that Fiat don´t offer this service and will charge you around £2000 to replace the unit... So this might be an option for you

http://https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Dualogic-semi-Auto-Gearbox-Actuator-Grande-Punto-Panda-Idea-500-selespeed/332593483371?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49129%26meid%3D7bc9be2c44e64d1ab7854aa0c6033967%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D222904484806%26itm%3D332593483371&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Pan...m=192234581710&_trksid=p2047675.c100752.m1982

It’s one thing spending £1.5k to get a new unit fitted to a car that you purchased for £14-18k 7 years ago, it’s another doing this on a car you paid £4-5k for second hand. So perhaps the eBay reconditioned units might be a better spend for you and then you can actually enjoy your car.

Once replaced should be reliable again for a good few years