Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[Lummers]

Our 1.4 500c gave us the gear not available message last week and dumped some oil on the driveway, The dealer has just reported that it needs a new selespeed actuator total cost £1,500!!!! We love the car but that's outrageous.

 

[asafvak]

Hi,

I have fiat Bravo T-jet with M20 dualogic gearbox.(CFC300)
the gears shifting is very jerky and sometimes may stuck in gear or jump to neutral.
hydrulic fluid level has been checked and adjustments for the clutch using the examiner.
the mechanic suggest to replace the clutch (76000 km).
here is the parameters I output from multiecuscan:
gear/engage position: 18.821mm
selection position: 102.564mm
clutch pressure plate travel:18.336mm
clutch pressure plate reference:19.392mm
clutch engaged position(self-adjusted):17.232
PIS spacer closed position(self-adjusted):5.352

please advise is the clutch need replacement.
thanks
__________________

 

[p6baseunit]

Our 1.4 500c gave us the gear not available message last week and dumped some oil on the driveway, The dealer has just reported that it needs a new selespeed actuator total cost £1,500!!!! We love the car but that's outrageous.

Well £1050 is the Fiat retail price of the actuator + 3 hours labour + £20 for the litre of oil and VAT gets you to around that figure.

Basically buy the actuator from Shop4parts for £632 and then get the car to a Fiat or Alfa specialist - https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=6510&sku=256336

That should be straight forward as your actuator is leaking..

The figure to fix for example the DSG box on a mark 6 or 7 Golf is more than double this figure. These robotic semi auto gearboxes are not cheap to fix period.

 

[p6baseunit]

Hi,

I have fiat Bravo T-jet with M20 dualogic gearbox.(CFC300)
the gears shifting is very jerky and sometimes may stuck in gear or jump to neutral.
hydrulic fluid level has been checked and adjustments for the clutch using the examiner.
the mechanic suggest to replace the clutch (76000 km).

please advise is the clutch need replacement.
thanks
__________________

First off the Fiat 500 doesn't get the dualogic setup on the M20 gearbox. This gearbox is a 6 speed and the 500 has a more basic set up of a different Selespeed actuator on the standard 500 5 speed gearbox.

The Fiat Bravo set up is way more complicated than the 500 dualogic version and gets a 6 speed box. It is claimed to give a very smooth drive when working correctly.

My second observation is, I would expect the clutch to last 80000km to 120000km on average depending on city only driving or a mix of motorway (less clutch work) so your clutch could be nearing the end of it's life.

But regardless a worn clutch will not explain jerky gear shifts or the gearbox dropping into N. Can you explain what you mean by getting "stuck in gear"

This will be a selespeed issue! But the Fiat 500 uses a more basic set up on a 5 speed box

Your best bet is to take this car to an Alfa Specialist, as they see the same set up on various Alfas.

 

[p6baseunit]

Waited 6 weeks for Fiat to supply Shop4parts with a gearbox control module - complete unit and it arrived yesterday. The car is perfectly ok at the moment, but it will be kept in my workshop until needed. To dispel any myths, it comes pre fill with oil and should be an easy swap out for any competent home mechanic! Having donated £15 to the forum for the discount code, I then got £140 of the total order, should have done that ages ago!

 

[p6baseunit]

The TwinAir dualogic will be 4 years old in December and has 28000miles on the clock. The gearbox has been faultless in this time. The car had new gas shock absorbers all round and top mounts a year ago, a drop link and one coil pack. It drives as it did when I collected it from Fiat and looks around 6 months old!

 

[ausabarth]

I am an australian owner of a 2013 abarth 500. I have been told my selespeed actuator requires replacing at a cost of $10000 if bought locally!!!

Can someone point me to where i may be able to buy and import as i believe they are far more reasonably priced in Europe?

I am being told the part no is 55280639 but all of my searches come up blank?

 

[p6baseunit]

I am an australian owner of a 2013 abarth 500. I have been told my selespeed actuator requires replacing at a cost of $10000 if bought locally!!!

Can someone point me to where i may be able to buy and import as i believe they are far more reasonably priced in Europe?

I just checked with Shop4Parts for you. They don't have the item in stock, but they can order the whole gearbox control module, which includes the Actuator, Pump, Pressure vessel etc.

Replacing the whole module rather than just the Actuator is the safest way to proceed as it means that there will be no further problems.

They quoted £1250 and from memory shipment to you will be around £130.
Something in the region of 2500aus dollars to your door. They tell me the order from Abarth will take 1 week and the shipment to you is another week.
I always order parts from them and i am based in Spain, their service is excellent.
I hope that helps

 

[ahmett]

Hi guys,

Just an update!
I am still driving my Fiat 500 dualogic with around 150,000 kms on the clock.
The Dualogic Box continues to give me problems, when underway, it works perfectly normally in manual mode, but sometimes on the auto downshifts when slowing down (around 20kmh) it goes into neutral and doesnt go out of neutral until i restart the car a few times! Really madness, but i solve it by just changing the gears manually, whcih seems to work. Today it was messing up several times and i was even causing traffic issues to cars behind while troubleshooting so reset the battery and works ok now.

No fluid leak either, so I guess the usual just drive it until it breaks compeltely and argue with Fiat for a new actuator, I am on my 2nd one!
It could also be that the clutch is wearing out and this makes it harder to select gears at low speed. The gearbox itself seems to be ok as there is no issue going through all the gears in the car and the manual downshifts and upshifts work perfectly.

 

[waterfielda]

Hi Guys,
I have a Dualogic fiat 500. it initially had a broken clutch fork, which was repaired. shortly afterwards the seals failed in the gear selector pistons, leaking fluid out the front gear selector sensor housing.

I have stripped down the box to access the slide piston seals and replaced them. now its back on the box I cant get it to operate correctly, and whilst confident in the seal replacement Im not sure the gearbox is pushing pulling etc correctly and gear selection indication is strange (for example shows 3, 5, 4th gear when in neutral,

There is a slim possibility that the wiring may be crossed but I cold do with a wiring diagram/pinout.

Despite the two initial problems (clutch fork and seal fail) it operated correctly so I do believe its something I've done in the re-fit stage..

 

[ahmett]

Guess what guys!

My car left me on the side of the road again! I thought it was low power so I changed the battery but that did not fix problems completely. Oddly enough there is no leak of the gearbox and when it works fine it works, but it seems the clutch is slipping.

So it broke down as in it is stuck in Neutral and refuses to engage in any gears so left it to Fiat and they said that it needs a new clutch and quoted me 500 EUR for it. I find that ridiculously expensive ( i changed the last clutch aftermarket at 200 EUR) but with the dualogic i want fiat to fix it as everyone else seems to mess it up.

It has been about 70,000 kms on this clutch. (i think dualogic boxes uses clutches more aggressively especially with start stop city driving and hills).

I spoke with Fiat HQ and they are aware of how much money i spent on this stupid car so they told me to call them back once the diagnosis came from the Fiat main dealer.

I am hoping for a discount as I am really sick at throwing money in this car.
Unfortunately in GR financing cars is impossible and i am not able to spend 20,000 EUR cash for a decent new car (forget used they are all crashed and broken up on the awful roads here).

So I hope Fiat help me out tomorrow and give me a discount.

 

[ahmett]

Well quite an adventure in the end!

The car was left in the Fiat dealer. They wanted 500 EUR for a new clutch and cannot look at the car before Wednesday. I urgently needed my car, and was very upset that I am being charged so much for a clutch + waiting so long! No courtesy cars available until December 15 either. = (
I was still waiting for Fiat to call me back about whether I would get any discount so finally I decided to take matters into my own hands and try and deal with the car myself.

I went to the Fiat main dealer and asked to take the car away and drive it until Fiat can reply to me and until my appointment on Wednesday. They said no, as the car refuses to engage in gear. I said let's try to move it, so we went to the garage and I reset the battery 3-4 times until the dualogic box managed to engage in gear. Finally it managed to get into 1st gear so managed to drive it off.

The Fiat tech had told me that the clutch pressure plate was ruined and it may break down at any time. So i drove the car slowly, changing gears manual mode until finally it refused to change gear from 2nd. So i drove about 10 miles stuck in 2nd year on the motorway, until I reached the independent garage where I usually do business with (Bosch Car Service) and told them to replace the clutch.

They managed to replace the clutch and use their diagnostics to relearn the clutch and finally the car seems to be as new with the dualogic box working perfectly!

I will now be careful, as this means the clutch only lasted 60,000 kms. So i am driving it slow until the clutch wears in and will try to drive more carefully.

The Bosch Dealer charged me 260 EUR to change the clutch and replace the transmission fluid, I saw the Dualogic system and it looked in perfect order, the oil level was normal and no leaks.

I am attaching a picture of the old Valeo clutch, which looks pretty messed up to be honest, the pressure plate is missing pieces! The other part of the clutch looks just fine (don't know what it's called).

 

[chris3234]

Well quite an adventure in the end!

The car was left in the Fiat dealer. They wanted 500 EUR for a new clutch and cannot look at the car before Wednesday. I urgently needed my car, and was very upset that I am being charged so much for a clutch + waiting so long! No courtesy cars available until December 15 either. = (
I was still waiting for Fiat to call me back about whether I would get any discount so finally I decided to take matters into my own hands and try and deal with the car myself.

I went to the Fiat main dealer and asked to take the car away and drive it until Fiat can reply to me and until my appointment on Wednesday. They said no, as the car refuses to engage in gear. I said let's try to move it, so we went to the garage and I reset the battery 3-4 times until the dualogic box managed to engage in gear. Finally it managed to get into 1st gear so managed to drive it off.

The Fiat tech had told me that the clutch pressure plate was ruined and it may break down at any time. So i drove the car slowly, changing gears manual mode until finally it refused to change gear from 2nd. So i drove about 10 miles stuck in 2nd year on the motorway, until I reached the independent garage where I usually do business with (Bosch Car Service) and told them to replace the clutch.

They managed to replace the clutch and use their diagnostics to relearn the clutch and finally the car seems to be as new with the dualogic box working perfectly!

I will now be careful, as this means the clutch only lasted 60,000 kms. So i am driving it slow until the clutch wears in and will try to drive more carefully.

The Bosch Dealer charged me 260 EUR to change the clutch and replace the transmission fluid, I saw the Dualogic system and it looked in perfect order, the oil level was normal and no leaks.

I am attaching a picture of the old Valeo clutch, which looks pretty messed up to be honest, the pressure plate is missing pieces! The other part of the clutch looks just fine (don't know what it's called).

Wow it's not often I see the pressure plate being damaged
It's usually the friction plate section

 

[John202020]

Is that wear on the ends of the "fingers" or was there always a recess at the ends?

 

[ahmett]

Is that wear on the ends of the "fingers" or was there always a recess at the ends?

If you look closely, 2 of the fingers have literally torn off and many of them are worn off.
No wonder it was so hard to engage gear!

The difference is night and day with the new clutch, in fact I am trying to drive it very carefully as I always want it to stay like this!

 

[John202020]

If you look closely, 2 of the fingers have literally torn off and many of them are worn off.
No wonder it was so hard to engage gear!

The difference is night and day with the new clutch, in fact I am trying to drive it very carefully as I always want it to stay like this!

I wonder if there was another issue that's caused the excessive wear, I thought the release bearing should have pressed there so little to no wear?

 

[ahmett]

I wonder if there was another issue that's caused the excessive wear, I thought the release bearing should have pressed there so little to no wear?

Given that when the dualogic box is malfunctioning, gear and clutch selection can be very erratic and forceful, I wouldn't be surprised that the damage was done during this time.

Here's to hoping for a new start!
I even read the dualogic manual to know how to use it properly, I think the main damage occurs from start up when parking on hills and changing gears while not full stationary so I use my left foot to keep the car still while doing so.

Funnily enough it says to park the car in gear, but then before physically starting the engine to put it in N and then start the engine.

 

[burrowsdeano]

Thought I would give a little update on the dualogic/selespeed thread, I’ve now bought a Grande Punto dualogic with gearbox issues, I’m going to run the car for 6 months or so and work out exactly what causes all of the different problems they suffer with. I’ve got several used dualogic actuators to play with and will put the hours in and hopefully come up with fixes for any of the problems they suffer. Too many good cars go to scrap for this problem. Now I’m not tied to a dealer I’m sure I will have fixes soon.

 

[jagman1]

Hi, I'm new to the site and am looking for some advice. My wife has a 500C with dualogic gearbox. We have had the car from new and it has done 50k miles - the car now has a gearbox problem, It showed gearbox temp warning light then lost all drive. Regained drive after restarting car but only going forward in about 3rd gear, starting and staying in that gear but the strangest thing was with the gearlever in the reverse poition. There was a slight burn smell but the car got me about 2 miles to our local Fiat dealer with a bleeper sounding most of the time and without it changing gear. Dealership suggests replacement accuator and clutch - any ideas and advice would be much appriecated. Thank you.

 

[jrkitching]

Re: 500c 2012 50k miles dualogic gearbox problem

Hi, I'm new to the site

Hello and welcome :wave:.

and am looking for some advice.

That's what we're here for.

We have had the car from new and it has done 50k miles - the car now has a gearbox problem

Sorry you're joining us with a problem - condolences.

Sadly dualogic failure at this sort of mileage, whilst not exactly common, is by no means unusual - that's why this thread is now over 400 posts long.

Dealership suggests replacement actuator and clutch

From what you've posted, that's probably going to be the only thing that will give you a long term fix that you can rely on. I'm guessing a main dealer is going to charge somewhere in the region of £1500 for that, fitted. An independent fiat specialist will be cheaper, but I'd not recommend taking it to a garage without specific experience of working with these gearboxes. If you've had it from new and have a full main dealer service history, it's worth approaching Fiat to see if they will make a goodwill contribution to the repair cost, but don't expect miracles.

Some folks have fixed this temporarily by changing and/or topping up the fluid in the actuator and resetting the warning messages. This may give the illusion that all is well but the problems generally come back within a short time. Often folks do this and then quickly sell the car or trade it in. This obviously doesn't apply in your case as you've had the car from new, but buyers of secondhand dualogics need to be aware the previous owner may have done exactly that.

Ethical considerations aside, what you do now probably depends on how long you plan on keeping the car.

@ahmett has a long-running love/hate relationship with a 500 dualogic and may be along shortly to contribute to the discussion.

If you're anywhere near south Hampshire, @burrowsdeano runs an independent garage and has more knowledge than most about these gearboxes. He's recently bought a donor car with dualogic issues to experiment with so that he can develop more cost-effective alternatives to replacement of the complete actuator (it's not a cheap part).