AndyRKett said:

Saw two chavs in a grande the other day while out walking the dogs, they were sat on their mums drive with the windows wide open and drum and base blaring out with the front seats reclined to an almost horizontal position.

The reason they replaced the C2 was it wasn't very popular and it was a bad car.. Now the saxo was a bad car, very bad in fact but it also sold by the boat load

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puntofan01 said:

I suppose at least they were chavs with a good taste in cars, lol! I know the Saxo was terrible: it was based on the Peugeot 106! Why do you say the C2 was a bad car?

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Grande's don't seem to have the same cult chav following that the Mk2 Punto's developed. The Fiesta & Corsa and possibly Mk2 Clio seems to be more popular in that respect, near here anyway. Grande Punto's seem to be either trashed base models or really well cared-for Dynamic/Eleganza & Sportings, but we don't have the number of them round here that I see when I visit some other parts of the Country. When I visit friends in Manchester, Punto's are everywhere, even the Punto Evo and 2012, which I hardly see here.

Agreed about the Saxo being poor. Hopelessly poor in a crash, abysmal pedal layout & not very comfy. However it sold by the bucket load because it was cheap and if you could actually operate the pedals without pressing two at once (I couldn't) then it drove quite well for a bargain basement car. I test drove one to replace a Mk1 Clio, but nearly crashed it as the pedal layout was so cramped. Ended up with a Mk2 (facelift) Clio instead.


I don't agree about the C2 being that bad though. My Sister had a 58 plate VTS HDi (1.6) and a friend had an 04 plate SX HDi (1.4). Both kept them about 2 years & did 35k each and the only problem was a blown fuse for the washer jets on my Sisters one. They drove ok. They bounced around on bad roads, tyres kicking up a lot of noise, but that's not done the 500 any harm! They were decently styled, reliable (HDi's were anyway), well equipped, pretty safe and secure and very economical.

The negatives on the C2 I found was vague steering and a horrid 5-speed Peugeot-Citroen gearbox, but they still use that awful gearbox even now so obviously other people put up with it. I never understand how car magazines slag off Fiat's gearboxes when there are ones as bad as Pug/Citroens 5-speed - Fiat's boxes are brilliant-feeling compared to that loose, vague nastiness. It wasn't a terrible car though. I always interpreted the DS3 as the C2's replacement of sorts - the 3dr Saxo's, C2's & DS3's tend to sell to younger buyers, with the C3 being an slightly older persons car.

AndyRKett said:

Saw two chavs in a grande the other day while out walking the dogs, they were sat on their mums drive with the windows wide open and drum and base blaring out with the front seats reclined to an almost horizontal position.

The reason they replaced the C2 was it wasn't very popular and it was a bad car.. Now the saxo was a bad car, very bad in fact but it also sold by the boat load

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puntofan01 said:

I suppose at least they were chavs with a good taste in cars, lol! I know the Saxo was terrible: it was based on the Peugeot 106! Why do you say the C2 was a bad car?

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Grande's don't seem to have the same cult chav following that the Mk2 Punto's developed. The Fiesta & Corsa and possibly Mk2 Clio seems to be more popular in that respect, near here anyway. Grande Punto's seem to be either trashed base models or really well cared-for Dynamic/Eleganza & Sportings, but we don't have the number of them round here that I see when I visit friends in Manchester - Fiat's are everywhere up there!


I agree about the Saxo being poor. Hopelessly poor in a crash, abysmal pedal layout & not very comfy. However it sold by the bucket load because it was cheap and if you could actually operate the pedals without pressing two at once (I couldn't) then it drove quite well for a bargain basement car. I test drove one to replace a Mk1 Clio, but nearly crashed it as the pedal layout was so cramped. Ended up with a Mk2 (facelift) Clio instead.

I don't agree about the C2 being that bad though. My Sister had a 58 plate VTS HDi (1.6) and a friend had an 04 plate SX HDI (1.4). Both kept them about 2 years & did 35k each and the only problem was a blown fuse for the washer jets on my Sisters one. They drove ok. They bounced around on bad roads, tyres kicking up a lot of noise, but that's not done the 500 any harm!


The worst part about the C2s I drove were the vague steering and horrid 5-speed Peugeot-Citroen gearbox, but they still use that awful gearbox even now so obviously other people put up with it. I never understand how car magazines slag off Fiat's gearboxes when there are ones as bad as Pug/Citroens 5-speed - Fiat's boxes are brilliant-feeling compared to that loose, vague nastiness.

Maybe I'm , but I will continue trying to get us back on topic...

Mercky said:

Would like a 500 with the 1.4 MA and TCT in Alfa Stromboli grey and red leather!!

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I agree with the first half. MultiAir engines and TCT would definitely make the 500 more competitive!

Altough Stromboli grey isn't too bad either, but red leather...

AGH1965 said:

Maybe I'm

, but I will continue trying to get us back on topic...

I agree with the first half. MultiAir engines and TCT would definitely make the 500 more competitive!

Altough Stromboli grey isn't too bad either, but red leather...

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Well it's more burgundy then red I guess, it's a combo you see on Alfa GT's and it's very smart, personal taste obviously! Anyway that brings us nicely to the colours available on the 500.................anyone?

puntofan01 said:

To be fair, the same could be said about yourself. It isn't entirely unknown for you to say how wonderful bmw minis are after all. The same with ahmett, many times now he's said about how he hates anything fwd, how he hates his dualogic gearbox, how he wants a 1 series, etc. Yes, I praise my Grande a lot, but that's because I'm very satisfied with all aspects of it, no different to you and your mini.

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We were talking about the new generation F56 mini and the mini in comparison to the Fiat 500 since this is a thread about the 500s competitiveness and fiat like to think that mini is their main competitor (500x v countryman for instance) you can talk about the VW up if you like but in comparison to the 500 is doesn't have the cute factor that the 500 has.

Your grande though doesn't come into the discussion, fiat now barely sell any puntos and prefer to keep pushing the 500 500L and now the 500x, even the panda still sells well compared to the Punto, meanwhile Vauxhall sell the corsa by the ship load and for sell the equally comparable fiesta and Ka in their thousands, I think last year in the UK ford sold more fiestas than fiat sold cars.

JTD_Liam said:

Grande's don't seem to have the same cult chav following that the Mk2 Punto's developed. The Fiesta & Corsa and possibly Mk2 Clio seems to be more popular in that respect, near here anyway. Grande Punto's seem to be either trashed base models or really well cared-for Dynamic/Eleganza & Sportings, but we don't have the number of them round here that I see when I visit some other parts of the Country. When I visit friends in Manchester, Punto's are everywhere, even the Punto Evo and 2012, which I hardly see here.

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Back in the early 2000 I agree the Punto mk2 especially the sporting models were very much a car of the chavs, I remember going into a fiat dealership in about 2001 and they had the abarth hgt Punto in the middle of the show room and a number of other puntos around it, while the whole dealership and company where very much geared towards young drivers and the 'fun of driving' then seemingly within a few years they lost a lot of that reputation, the panda came out in 2003 aimed very much at the school run, and they released models like the croma which were very much meant for a much older buyer. The mk2 and mk2b still sold well though, but tastes were changing and motoring was getting more expensive, and despite the corsa and the grande being essentially the same car underneath, Vauxhall really made something of the corsa and connected with young drivers while fiat seemingly gave up.

Now when we talk about "chav" cars these tend to be much older cars now that are being modified, rather than 10years ago when you'd see nearly new mk2 puntos with silly wheels extra large spoilers and enough stereo equipment to put a night club to shame, the mk2 along with the saxo and the corsa even had a Haynes manual dedicated to modifying them, such was their popularity.

The grande is now becoming a choice of young drivers who have worked out its slightly cheaper to buy and insure than the corsa equivalent.

Back on topic though, will the multiair engine really help fiat sell cars? Only a few years in and already quite a few horror stories about solenoid failures and £1000+ repair bills on just out of warranty cars, one of the great things about fiats is low repair costs so this isn't going to help their reputation

Indeed, reliability problems aren't going to help the reputation. I don't know if the second generation MultiAir still suffers from these problems though. On the other hand, the 1.2 might be without reliability problems, but it's Jurassic and doesn't have any excitement of new technologies. Such engine gives the car a dull image!

AndyRKett said:

for sell the equally comparable fiesta and Ka in their thousands, I think last year in the UK ford sold more fiestas than fiat sold cars.

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That is very true. There's no accounting for taste!

I don't get it. Why is Ford so popular in the UK?

AGH1965 said:

I don't get it. Why is Ford so popular in the UK?

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To quote a Clarkson line from the 1990s: "They give their average cars to their brilliant marketing department, and tell them to get on with it." Unfortunately, a lot of people fall for it too.

AGH1965 said:

I don't get it. Why is Ford so popular in the UK?

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Because these days if you want a reliable car ford for the last 10 years have achieved excellent standards in reliability and customer service, they're also cheap to buy and run with good resale values, so it really doesn't matter to most people if the car is a little bland or boring they're still very good little cars. I had fords from about 2000 - 2005 and they never broke down, though they did have problems come MOT time.

The new engines are excellent as well

Oh, in my country Ford isn't known for its cheapness. On the contrary, here it's a kind of "quality has its price" car.

Hi
ive read through this entire thread and thought id share my opinion of the 500
i can see why Fiat sell so many they look good, are cheap to insure and run. but they have some negatives mainly the way it drives. it can be bouncy on some roads, the steering is a bit too light at times (and really needs reach adjustment) but the biggest problem is the engines
the 1.2 is very dated and needs replaced (my 04 punto had a similare engine) and all i hear about the Twinair is the exaggerated fuel economy.
Fiat need some new engines or even bring back the Multiair engines but fix the faults first
also we seem to be comparing the 500 to the new mini, isnt the mini a supermini and the 500 a city car making them 2 different classes of car

AJ 96 said:

Hi
ive read through this entire thread and thought id share my opinion of the 500
i can see why Fiat sell so many they look good, are cheap to insure and run. but they have some negatives mainly the way it drives. it can be bouncy on some roads, the steering is a bit too light at times (and really needs reach adjustment) but the biggest problem is the engines
the 1.2 is very dated and needs replaced (my 04 punto had a similare engine) and all i hear about the Twinair is the exaggerated fuel economy.
Fiat need some new engines or even bring back the Multiair engines but fix the faults first
also we seem to be comparing the 500 to the new mini, isnt the mini a supermini and the 500 a city car making them 2 different classes of car

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I generally agree with the positives, and the negative of the bouncy suspension and light/artificial steering. However I don't think the engines are all that bad. It wouldn't hurt for Fiat to give the 500 a small 3 cylinder (possibly with turbo) because they seem to be more accepted by customers in the 500's sector than the 2 cylinder like the TwinAir. However overall they're all pretty good engines. The 1.2 is old, but it still does an alright job as an entry level engine. It's run into a few hiccups lately with the throttle response problems during 2014 and generally not feeling as 'alive' as it did a few years ago, but it can at least handle a stint on the Motorway without feeling dangerous like the entry VW Up/Seat Mii/Skoda Citigo & Renault Twingo 3 cylinder engines, which appear to be painfully slow. With those cars you seem to have an entry engine if you only drive in town, and have to pick the more expensive engine for everything else. With Fiat, the TwinAir is a brilliant engine, but you can actually get away with the cheaper 1.2 without feeling that hard done-by.

The only other thing I think Fiat could do instead of or as well as introducing a 3 cylinder, is close the price gap between the 1.2 and the 85bhp TwinAir. At the moment there's a massive price rise from the 1.2 to the 85bhp TwinAir, but then there's only a few hundred increase to the 105bhp TwinAir. I think it should be more balanced so that the sales are more equally balanced rather than what appears to be 9 out of 10 sales being the 1.2. The TwinAir struggles badly to get its official MPG claims, but given it's got quite a bit more oomph in it than the 1.2, the 47mpg average my Parents TwinAir got over 3 years (32,000 miles) was reasonable I thought

The MultiAir engines never stopped being used completely. It's true they've not been in the Fiat range for a while but that's because the Bravo was phased out and the only other car with MultiAir engines was the Punto, which is now approaching run-out, so is only offered with the entry level engines. The Alfa MiTo and Giulietta have had MultiAir engines non-stop since the MA engine got introduced. They seem to offer excellent performance and can give good MPG if you drive carefully. However, the TwinAir appears to be coping better with reliability, as it's not having the volume of solenoid (UniAir/MultiAir) failures of the MA engines (yet, anyway)

puntofan01 said:

I agree that early Grande Puntos are starting to become affordable for the slightly more better off chavs, but I would almost put money on the previous shape fiesta being more popular as a Halfords special.







I think the last saxos were on an 03 or a 53 plate, the first C2s being on a 53 plate.






I've always liked the C2, I don't know why Citroen never replaced it.

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haha was reading this thread after coming across a chav in a VW Sciricco who told me that I was a gangster for not giving him room as he exited a blind junction (it was his stop sign so my priority). The car had stickers and tuned exhausts so you can imagine the type. He actually got out of his car and started shouting at me. I just looked at him and said you should have stopped it was your stop. After a while he got bored of shouting and went back to his car.

I didnt want to escalate things, but i was planning for a moment to tell him, what sciroccoclub.gr does not give free driving lessons?

Anyway my point is there seem to be more and more 'wealthy chavs' around that drive VW Sciroccos or tuned Mini Cooper S Works. I guess dealing drugs is quite profitable so obviously they would be driving better cars than a 500 GBP Saxo or Corsa = ) Given that many youth's seem to smoke marijuana these days (thanks to the EU liberal police it is pretty much legal now), I guess many people make a lot of money from dealing the drug that the police hardly seem bothered about!

ahmett said:

Anyway my point is there seem to be more and more 'wealthy chavs' around that drive VW Sciroccos or tuned Mini Cooper S Works.

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I went to the cinema last night and while waiting in the carpark for my wife to get there from work I was passed by a lad who looked about 18 in a Porsche 996 cabriolet.

There are plenty of kids round my way driving very fancy cars but usually bought and paid for by mum and dad so nothing to do with drugs.