Technical Starting a Twin Air

[Mick F]

Hi guys, I thought I'd start a new thread about this, because this issue is buried inside the "Cold Starting" thread.

I found that sometimes after our Stop/Start 500TA had been stood a day or two, or sometimes only a day, that I could turn the key to AVV directly after inserting it and nothing would happen. The dash warning lights would come on, but other than that - total silence from under the bonnet.

By trying again once or twice, it would start normally!

Next idea was to give the car a chance to let the computers boot up properly, so I inserted the key, turned it to MAR for a few seconds, then turned to AVV. This worked, but as it turned out, only maybe only 75% of the time.

I must stress that if the car was warm or only left for a few hours, the problem wasn't there at all.

By reading the Fiat instructions, what you're supposed to do is to depress the clutch and be in neutral and turn directly to AVV. I have ONLY started the car in that method since reading this.

Despite sometimes the car being left for three or four days, it has started 100% of the time by going directly to AVV without a pause in Mar with the clutch depressed.

Thought you'd like to comment on this.
Mick.

 

[TrevC]

Never experienced it with my TA, Mick (2011 Lounge), and it's occasionally been left standing for a few days when we've been away in the other car. Mind you, I automatically depress the clutch whenever I start a car, so if it's related to that I won't have seen it.

 

[Mick F]

Hi Trev,
Ours is a 2011 61plate 85TA, but I was brought up to select neutral and NOT to depress the clutch when starting a car.

In the old days, if your car was ticking over in neutral and you pressed the clutch, the engine slowed down a tad. You could hear it easily. This was because the pressure of the clutch was pushing the crankshaft against the main journals producing excess friction, plus many old clutch release bearings were just thrust washers and not bearings. This produced extra friction too and put extra load on the starter motor.

Old habits die hard, and I have to make a very conscious effort to press the clutch pedal, and that's how I know how long I've been doing this so have taken notice. I found this out by reading(!) the manual over three weeks ago. Maybe a dozen successful cold starts whereas it would fail just about every cold start before.

Never ever had a car before that NEEDED the clutch depressed to start reliably. I have been owning cars since 1971 and I've had maybe two dozen cars of various makes.

This is a Stop/Start car - and my first - so it may be that all S/S cars need the clutch depressed?

Cheers,
Mick.

 

[ahmett]

Hi Trev,
Ours is a 2011 61plate 85TA, but I was brought up to select neutral and NOT to depress the clutch when starting a car.

In the old days, if your car was ticking over in neutral and you pressed the clutch, the engine slowed down a tad. You could hear it easily. This was because the pressure of the clutch was pushing the crankshaft against the main journals producing excess friction, plus many old clutch release bearings were just thrust washers and not bearings. This produced extra friction too and put extra load on the starter motor.

Old habits die hard, and I have to make a very conscious effort to press the clutch pedal, and that's how I know how long I've been doing this so have taken notice. I found this out by reading(!) the manual over three weeks ago. Maybe a dozen successful cold starts whereas it would fail just about every cold start before.

Never ever had a car before that NEEDED the clutch depressed to start reliably. I have been owning cars since 1971 and I've had maybe two dozen cars of various makes.

This is a Stop/Start car - and my first - so it may be that all S/S cars need the clutch depressed?

Cheers,
Mick.

i doubt that's the case i usually start a car pressing the brake and nothing else.

 

[Mick F]

So do I!
Except our 500TA doesn't like it.

Mick.

 

[ahmett]

So do I!
Except our 500TA doesn't like it.

Mick.

in fact not only that i very rarely leave a car parked in gear unless i am on a steep hill. I just put the handbrake up = )

 

[scout]

i doubt that's the case i usually start a car pressing the brake and nothing else.

Isn't that because you don't have a clutch pedal, being automatic.

 

[ahmett]

Isn't that because you don't have a clutch pedal, being automatic.

no im talking about when i drive manual cars (rentals etc most of which have start stop)

 

[Mick F]

Therefore it's not all S/S cars.
Why a Fiat500 then?

Maybe ours has a fault?
Trouble is, it starts properly in accordance with the instructions ....... so it doesn't have a fault.

Thanks,
Mick.

 

[gazz_bee]

I can't speak from experience of a Fiat 500, but VW group cars with start/stop won't turn the engine without the clutch pedal being fully depressed. Ditto all the BMW cars I've driven with s/s. I'm certain that I was asked to do the same when I recently took a panda cross out for a test drive.

 

[AGH1965]

In the old days, if your car was ticking over in neutral and you pressed the clutch, the engine slowed down a tad.

Just the opposite, unless you had a clutch problem. Without the clutch pedal pressed and the gearbox in neutral, one shaft of the gearbox rotates at the speed of the engine. This rotation isn't without friction. Therefore the speed increased a bit if you pressed the clutch. Removing useless friction is exactly the reason why you should always press the clutch pedal when starting an engine.

 

[frupi]

No issues experienced with starting our TA, even after leaving the car for a couple of weeks after going on holiday.

As for depressing the clutch, well I've done this ever since I passed my test in the early 1980's. My driving instructor was insistent that the clutch should always be depressed prior to turning the ignition switch and I've always done it with every car I've ever owned or hired. Same with the handbrake, always, always depress the button in the handbrake before pulling it up, another of my driving instructors' 'rules' and again, something I've always done on every vehicle I've ever driven.

 

[AGH1965]

As for depressing the clutch, well I've done this ever since I passed my test in the early 1980's. My driving instructor was insistent that the clutch should always be depressed prior to turning the ignition switch and I've always done it with every car I've ever owned or hired.

Different country, but it sounds as if you got lessons from my driving instructor!

 

[varesecrazy]

No issues experienced with starting our TA, even after leaving the car for a couple of weeks after going on holiday.

As for depressing the clutch, well I've done this ever since I passed my test in the early 1980's. My driving instructor was insistent that the clutch should always be depressed prior to turning the ignition switch and I've always done it with every car I've ever owned or hired. Same with the handbrake, always, always depress the button in the handbrake before pulling it up, another of my driving instructors' 'rules' and again, something I've always done on every vehicle I've ever driven.

not just me then..!!

 

[typecastboy]

The Ford Focus, Hyandai i200 and Vauxhall Astras I drive at work, you have to depress the clutch otherwise it won't crank!! I find this really annoying, especially when you want to lean in the door or window and just turn the key.

You can't!!

 

[rkt2003]

Well i have had 16 Fiats some old the last three new and have always depressed the clutch again driving instructors habits
But no matter what starting procedure i take ,turn straight on,leave warning lights to go out,handbrake on etc if mine don't want to start 1st thing she wont bloody stubborn girl!!(not everyday) never had this on any Fiat before thus shows no faults when they plug her in 4 times now.She also does not replicate when left with the dealership i`m waiting for the Fiat nice lady to call me tomorrow to try and get this sorted once and fore all ps glad the o.p has no problems starting now.

 

[TrevC]

I always dip the clutch because my wife sometimes leaves it in gear! Our Megane (with button start) won't crank unless either the clutch or brake pedal are pressed, and a dashboard message tells you to do so.

 

[Mick F]

Always always always leave your car in gear and with the handbrake on.
Belt and Braces.

As for engines slowing down when you depress the clutch, they do. Try it. May not on a Fiat500 or other modern cars, but on every older car I've ever owned it certainly has. Absolutely no doubt about it.

As for the input shaft producing more friction than the clutch release bearing plus the main journals, I think you'll find that the friction of an input shaft fully lubricated on ball bearings and roller bearings has negligible friction. Dunno if anyone else on here knows how a car gearbox works, but I do.

Any road up, the instruction manual states that you should start a petrol 500 in neutral with the clutch depressed. I can assure everyone reading this that if you don't depress the clutch every single time, you'll find it won't start sometimes. Not every time, just sometimes .......... and I don't know why.

I would welcome someone telling me why.

Cheers,
Mick.

 

[scout]

I will adopt the Fiat customer service approach here - "because it does, it must be the way you drive it."

 

[Mick F]

Excellent!

Like we used to say to the children, "Because I say so!"

Mick.