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Old 03-04-2015   #1
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80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

A noob signing in from Finland. About to pull the trigger on a 500 for the wife.

Up here in Finland the available engine range for the 500 is limited to the 69hp 1.2 and the 80hp 0.9 TwinAir. The problem is that there are no opportunities to drive the TwinAir before purchase. I am also a bit puzzled about the TwinAir being 80hp instead of the 85hp it seems to have in other markets. The dealer is saying that this is due it being the Eco version of the TwinAir and that means it has 80hp and emissions of only 88 grams vs the 85hp and emissions at 93 grams. The torque figures are identical. They also confirm that it is a petrol engine and not the bi-fuel version that is available in some markets.

I am not concerned about the 5hp less output as even the 1.2 is ok in town, but a little more oomph would be nice (and both TwinAir versions deliver that over the 1.2). The TwinAir is also cheaper to insure. So, to make the long story short, I guess I am just wondering if the price difference is not an issue, is there any reason for not going for the TwinAir?

As for the rest of the car, it would be Lounge spec car with Xenons, Interscope hifi and auto-dimming mirror and 16" 10-double spoke wheels (the same as the ones that come standard with the Cult version). The wife does not like leather, so the fabric interior with Ivory ambience would be the one. And the exterior would be Bossanova white (or Gelato white as its called here). Anything critical that I have missed or something else I should consider?
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Old 03-04-2015   #2
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80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

I think all euro 6 ta's are 80 hp instead of 85?

I would go for the Diesel if possible but if no chance the TA.

The 1.2 is the ideal Eco option, but I simply don't trust it with all that's going on with that engine recently ( see the threads)
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Last edited by ahmett; 03-04-2015 at 09:51.
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Old 03-04-2015   #3
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
I think all euro 6 ta's are 80 hp instead of 85?

I would go for the Diesel if possible but if no chance the TA.

The 1.2 is the ideal Eco option, but I simply don't trust it with all that's going on with that engine recently ( see the threads)

I'm not so sure about that but more likely to be down to local emission regs, I recall another country having a lower output TA aswell but can't remember which one. To the OP, yes go for the TA, takes a bit of getting used and needs to be well run in for about 10k but they are fun!
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Old 03-04-2015   #4
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Thanks for the replies gents.

@ ahmett: The diesel 500 is not available here I'm afraid, so if I wanted one it would need to be a grey import. Furthermore, as a diesel it would incur an additional annual tax of around 200€ per year over and above a petrol 500 here in Finland. That would be difficult to justify financially for the low miles it is likely to be doing as our second car.
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Last edited by ristretto; 03-04-2015 at 10:53.
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Old 03-04-2015   #5
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by ristretto View Post
Thanks for the replies gents.

@ ahmett: The diesel 500 is not available here I'm afraid, so if I wanted one it would need to be a grey import. Furthermore, as a diesel it would incur an additional annual tax of around 200€ per year over and above a petrol 500 here in Finland. That would be difficult to justify financially for the low miles it is likely to be doing as our second car.
wow! if you are doing such low miles then you might as well get the 1.2? it is more economical than the TA and in my opinion, over the life of the car, cheaper to maintain as well. just make sure you test drive the car before actually taking delivery to make sure it doesnt have the Euro 6 issues .
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Old 03-04-2015   #6
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Thanks again. You got me thinking, so I did a little number crunching. The average prices for fuel today (in Finland):

Diesel - 1,37€/l
Petrol - 1,49€/l

Kilometers driven per year = 10.000km (6200 miles)

Average real-life consumption, rounded to the closest 5mpg from the data available from this Honest John / Real mpg (unable to attach url due to being a noob):

Diesel - 4,71 l/100km (60 mpg)
Petrol 0.9TA - 6,27 l/100km (45 mpg)
Petrol 1.2 - 5,65 l/100km (50 mpg)

Annual fuel cost:

Diesel - 4,71 x 100 x 1,37 = 645,27 €/year
Petrol 0.9TA - 6,27 x 100 x 1,49 = 934,23 €/year
Petrol 1.2 - 5,65 x 100 x 1,49 = 841,85 €/year

Road tax:

Diesel - 314 €/year
Petrol 0.9TA - 77 €/year
Petrol 1.2 - 94 €/year

Annual cost of fuel & road tax:

Diesel - 645,27 + 314 = 959,27 €/year
Petrol 0.9TA - 934,23 + 77 = 1.011,23 €/year
Petrol 1.2 - 841,85 + 94 = 935,85 €/year

Yes, the above is a result of a lot of assumptions and if you change one thing the results might look different. For example, there is talk that (in Finland) the purchase tax on cars and road taxes may change in 2016 and both of those changes would work in the favour of cars with lower emissions - in this case the TwinAir.

Anyway, the calculations lead me to conclude that the cost of running will probably not vary by much between the three engines (in Finland). At least not enough to be a consideration for me. Servicing costs over time, purchase cost and depreciation might favour the 1.2 over the TwinAir. But the extra performance and fun would compensate for that. I think I have convinced myself on the TwinAir
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Last edited by ristretto; 03-04-2015 at 13:47.
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Old 03-04-2015   #7
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Talking Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

I have had our 85 t/a twin for a couple of months, 2015 lounge model in white (new) gorgeous little car, totally hooked on the car and the engine.

Getting 42 mph from day one, living in the hilly Scottish highlands, drive fast and NEVER in eco mode or stop and start!

I have had dozens of cars over the years but this is my favourite for one reason...it's FUN to drive.

We have had numerous pandas in the past with various engines but honestly the t/a is brilliant to drive. Loads of torque, and the engine sounds amazing....

see my post about first encounter and trial drive.

panda owner buys a 500

Hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine!!!
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Old 03-04-2015   #8
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by ristretto View Post
Anyway, the calculations lead me to conclude that the cost of running will probably not vary by much between the three engines (in Finland).
The running costs may not be very different, but if you're only keeping it for 3 years, the depreciation will be.

If secondhand values in Finland are anything like those in the UK, you will likely need to budget for another €500 pa depreciation for the TA over the 1.2.

That's not to say it isn't worth it.
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Old 03-04-2015   #9
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
The running costs may not be very different, but if you're only keeping it for 3 years, the depreciation will be.

If secondhand values in Finland are anything like those in the UK, you will likely need to budget for another €500 pa depreciation for the TA over the 1.2.

That's not to say it isn't worth it.
In Finland the puchase tax (or should I say sales tax?) on cars is based on the co2 value. Hence the price difference of a new TwinAir Lounge and a 1.2 Lounge is only 500€. I actually had not realised myself that the difference is so small. I would probably keep the car 4-5 years, so depreciation is actually also a smaller issue than I thought - especially since one could hope the TwinAir to have a slightly superior (to the 1.2) resale value due to lower emissions, lower road tax and higher performance.
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Last edited by ristretto; 03-04-2015 at 17:17.
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Old 03-04-2015   #10
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by highlander52 View Post
I have had our 85 t/a twin for a couple of months, 2015 lounge model in white (new) gorgeous little car, totally hooked on the car and the engine.

Getting 42 mph from day one, living in the hilly Scottish highlands, drive fast and NEVER in eco mode or stop and start!

I have had dozens of cars over the years but this is my favourite for one reason...it's FUN to drive.

We have had numerous pandas in the past with various engines but honestly the t/a is brilliant to drive. Loads of torque, and the engine sounds amazing....

see my post about first encounter and trial drive.

panda owner buys a 500

Hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine!!!
Thanks for posting. Also read your thread. Sounds encouraging as regards the TwinAir
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Old 03-04-2015   #11
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by ristretto View Post
The problem is that there are no opportunities to drive the TwinAir before purchase. I am also a bit puzzled about the TwinAir being 80hp instead of the 85hp it seems to have in other markets.
What kind of garage doesn't offer a test drive?

The 80 hp version was developed for the Dutch market. The CO2 emission of 88 g/km isn't a coincidence. Up to December 31st 2014 this CO2 emission was just low enough to avoid paying CO2 tax in the Netherlands. This changed on January 1st 2015, but the 500 with 80 hp TwinAir is still on the market here. (I have a 500S with 80 hp TwinAir myself.)
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Old 03-04-2015   #12
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
I think all euro 6 ta's are 80 hp instead of 85?
No, they are not. As I wrote above, the 80 hp TwinAir was developed for the Dutch market to avoid CO2 tax.
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Old 03-04-2015   #13
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
What kind of garage doesn't offer a test drive?
Fiat has not been available at all for about a year here in Finland. However, they are starting anew just this month but have not gotten any TwinAir demostrators. I can wait until they get them in and then go for a spin. But that would also mean I could not get the new car delivered in time for the wife's b-day. I was planning on it being her present

As for all this mulling over which engine and spec to go for, while it is going to be primarily for her use I wan't to be sure I like it, too. After all, I'll be paying for it as well as also occasionally driving it when she takes the beemer for the longer drives

Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
The 80 hp version was developed for the Dutch market. The CO2 emission of 88 g/km isn't a coincidence. Up to December 31st 2014 this CO2 emission was just low enough to avoid paying CO2 tax in the Netherlands. This changed on January 1st 2015, but the 500 with 80 hp TwinAir is still on the market here. (I have a 500S with 80 hp TwinAir myself.)
Thanks for this info. The dealer was not able to tell me this, but that's what this type of forums are for
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Last edited by ristretto; 03-04-2015 at 17:50.
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Old 03-04-2015   #14
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

I've got a TA 85 Lounge, and love it. There's much more mid-range urge than the 1.2, and more in reserve when cruising at the motorway limit (approx 120kph in the UK). However, the 1.2 is smoother, especially at low revs - the TA is happiest in third gear around town, or it can judder. Shame you can't try one as they are a bit different, but I think most people that have bought a TA have been very happy with it, although the lower emissions aren't necessarily reflected in lower fuel consumption!
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Old 04-04-2015   #15
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Re: 80 vs 85hp TwinAir engine (and other advise)?

Ristretto, maybe I misunderstood the reason of your question, since I focused on the difference between 80 and 85 hp.

Did you ever drive a 500 with a 85 hp TwinAir engine? If you did, then there is no problem, since the 80 hp TwinAir behaves almost like the 85 hp version, but if you didn't, then I advise you to make a test drive before buying anything! Some people simply can't get used to the habits of the TwinAir engine. They get annoyed by the sound, the vibrations at low engine speeds or whatever...
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