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Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

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Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

poggy said:
If you do reject you do it with the dealer as your contract was with them, although the dealer will pursue Fiat themselves.
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Am I right in thinking that this might not be the case if you have the car on certain types of finance; your contract in that case is actually with the finance house/underwriter not the dealer.

This may make rejecting the car easier; and (I think this was mentioned when someone had an undeclared crash damaged 500 on finance) you may have additional protections under the various credit acts.
 
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Yes you can reject using the finance company, but you would have to check the rules on how it was financed etc etc
 
Rejecting a car isn't to be taken lightly. If the dealer contests the rejection and it goes to Court, you could be risking a legal bill that's at least equal to the value of the car if you lose - the price tag on a new 500 means it's unlikely to be heard through the small claims track, so you'll be looking at a full County Court hearing, with both parties solicitors bills on the table.

Also it will take you the best part of six months - that's six months of uncertainty and six months without the use of the car, because if you continue to drive it after you first notice the fault, you'll lose the right to reject.

That is an important legal point - if you do want to reject anything you've purchased because it's not fit for purpose, you must not do anything which could be interpreted by a Court as having accepted it. Continuing to use it would almost certainly be construed by a County Court Judge as implied acceptance.

Use the big guns if you absolutely have to, but Maxi is right - pragmatically, your chances of a good outcome, and more importantly a speedy resolution, are greater if you keep the supplying dealer on your side.
 
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Thanks everyone for the ensuing discussions - it feels good that I'm not alone and can get some balanced views on my predicament.

I paid a deposit and then signed up to a 4yr lease agreement. If I chose to terminate on a whim (as opposed to asserting that the car was not fit for purpose) it would immediately cost me 50% of the value of the car, i.e. £8k. Which I couldn't afford to do.

However - the car, to my mind and I'm sure to others, too, is NOT fit for purpose given that it has the issues that it does.

Yes, my dealership has been pretty shoddy so far and their immediate reaction (for those of you who don't want to scroll back through the threads to find my original post) was to be highly defensive, maintain that other customers in much hillier climbs have not complained, and I could discuss changing the vehicle to a different model, i.e. the 1.3, TwinAir or diesel.

There was no acknowledgement of my disappointment, no offer of an apology, and no suggestion that I should bring it back to them for a full diagnostics straight away. In fact, this latter fact astounded Fiat UK when I phoned them the first time, as dealerships should ALWAYS offer this in these situations. It shouldn't take me to harangue them with lots of unreturned phone calls to get the tests scheduled.

My query now is what I do from here. I think, given that I have done everything by the book as far as Fiat UK is concerned, I need to phone them every week now and document when and what was said. Whilst I'm not in the slightest bit impressed with the dealership, I have to agree that they are somewhat in the middle. Yes they took a deposit, but my financing is between myself and the finance company, who incidentally I have NOT contacted yet, but would be keen to hear from anyone engaged in a similar lease agreement who HAS.
 
ab4444 said:
...but my financing is between myself and the finance company, who incidentally I have NOT contacted yet, but would be keen to hear from anyone engaged in a similar lease agreement who HAS.
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All the comments I've previously made about rejecting a car through a dealer apply to rejecting through a finance company, only much more so.

I've spoken to someone 'in the trade' with regards to consumer vehicle finance and in cases like this they will refer the complaint back to the supplying dealer. If the supplying dealer says the vehicle has been tested and peforms acceptably, then they're absolutely not going to do anything further without clear legal proof from the customer that the vehicle is defective.

Rejecting through a finance company is only worth pursuing if you get a Court judgment against the supplying dealer & for some reason they then refuse, or are unable, to pay. It's not an option for continuing to pursue a claim just because you don't agree with the supplier's decision - until you have a legal judgment against the dealer AND the dealer is refusing to comply with its terms, they most likely won't want to know.

Taking action against a finance company is a last resort protection in the event you have a clear claim against a supplier which for some reason (eg insolvency) they are unable to meet.
 
Yes I am still using it by virtue that I am avoiding hills. Are you suggesting that I take it to the dealership, leave it there and say that I refuse now to drive it until it is fixed?
 
ab4444 said:
Yes I am still using it by virtue that I am avoiding hills. Are you suggesting that I take it to the dealership, leave it there and say that I refuse now to drive it until it is fixed?
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Only if you want to keep the option of legal rejection. In that case, you must stop using it from the time you first notice the fault.
 
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While you're in the dealer, get them out with YOU in the car. Back to back if necessary with their demo model.

It does take perseverance. My Dodge had a knocking from the back on purchase, that apparently only I could hear (!) Eventually after numerous No Fault Founds the youthfull staff with way better hearing than I, put a 'chassis ear' on it and finally heard the noise and replaced both rear caliper mounts.:bang:
 
ab4444 said:
Thanks everyone for the ensuing discussions - it feels good that I'm not alone and can get some balanced views on my predicament.

I paid a deposit and then signed up to a 4yr lease agreement. If I chose to terminate on a whim (as opposed to asserting that the car was not fit for purpose) it would immediately cost me 50% of the value of the car, i.e. £8k. Which I couldn't afford to do.

However - the car, to my mind and I'm sure to others, too, is NOT fit for purpose given that it has the issues that it does.

Yes, my dealership has been pretty shoddy so far and their immediate reaction (for those of you who don't want to scroll back through the threads to find my original post) was to be highly defensive, maintain that other customers in much hillier climbs have not complained, and I could discuss changing the vehicle to a different model, i.e. the 1.3, TwinAir or diesel.

There was no acknowledgement of my disappointment, no offer of an apology, and no suggestion that I should bring it back to them for a full diagnostics straight away. In fact, this latter fact astounded Fiat UK when I phoned them the first time, as dealerships should ALWAYS offer this in these situations. It shouldn't take me to harangue them with lots of unreturned phone calls to get the tests scheduled.

My query now is what I do from here. I think, given that I have done everything by the book as far as Fiat UK is concerned, I need to phone them every week now and document when and what was said. Whilst I'm not in the slightest bit impressed with the dealership, I have to agree that they are somewhat in the middle. Yes they took a deposit, but my financing is between myself and the finance company, who incidentally I have NOT contacted yet, but would be keen to hear from anyone engaged in a similar lease agreement who HAS.
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could you also maybe convince them to change the car and get a TA? fiat may be more willing if you stick with them and get another fiat. surely if you do that then it wont cost you 8 k = )
 
ab4444 said:
Whilst I'm not in the slightest bit impressed with the dealership, I have to agree that they are somewhat in the middle. Yes they took a deposit, but my financing is between myself and the finance company, who incidentally I have NOT contacted yet, but would be keen to hear from anyone engaged in a similar lease agreement who HAS.
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They took a deposit and they would have been paid in full for the car by the leasing company. Did they sell you the leasing deal and earn a nice commission from that too? They have certainly banked a full profit by selling you a car which won't go up hills.
They would be delighted if you didn't bother them any more and took your problem up with Fiat. That would leave them free to carry on selling more of these cars to unsuspecting customers.
You can let them get away with it and wait forever and a day for Fiat to come up with a satisfactory solution bearing in mind that there are many people on this forum who say Fiat customer service are a disgrace. Alternatively you can take a direct approach with your dealer and demand they take full responsibility for selling you a faulty car and that they do something about it.
 
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ab4444 said:
There was no acknowledgement of my disappointment, no offer of an apology, and no suggestion that I should bring it back to them for a full diagnostics straight away. In fact, this latter fact astounded Fiat UK when I phoned them the first time, as dealerships should ALWAYS offer this in these situations. It shouldn't take me to harangue them with lots of unreturned phone calls to get the tests scheduled.
Click to expand...

I had the same initial response from my dealer. The mechanic said it would be a waste of time to do a diagnostic test as they had already done it a number of times with other customers cars and nothing was found. They all know the problem exists and they all know that there isn't a fix available. The only response they have is to deny there is a problem at all.
Have you shown them the video from the second Watchdog programme?
 
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When I picked my car up yesterday from the dealership the chap that gave me my car keys back acknowledged the Watchdog report saying that they have no idea what's likely to happen as a result and that I should go back to Fiat UK for further advice on the investigation taking place currently. It appears they don't know anything more.

I'm now very tempted to take everything out of the car and deliver it back to the dealership stating that I do not want it until the problems have been resolved (whilst advising the finance company that I am not paying anything further for the vehicle until such times as the problems have been resolved).
 
I think you would be better advised to keep paying the payments as this could cause you some serious additional problems including being black listed and not being able to get finance in the future. As has been mentioned before the leasing company will need proof that the car is faulty and will not just take your word for it.
A better idea (if the dealer refuses to help) would be to park in front of the forecourt with a sign saying DO NOT BUY! THIS CAR CAN'T GO UP HILLS! and leave the car there.
 
Palma500s said:
I think you would be better advised to keep paying the payments as this could cause you some serious additional problems including being black listed and not being able to get finance in the future.
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:yeahthat:.

Irrespective of whether you leave the car at the dealer, if you stop making payments, the finance company will almost certainly place a default on your credit file and instigate further recovery action. This will mean paying substantial extra costs, plus you may have serious problems obtaining any kind of further credit (including opening a bank account or applying for a mortgage) for the next six years.

Don't even think about stopping making payments without written authorisation from the finance company - it's just not worth screwing up your credit file for this.

ab4444 said:
When I picked my car up yesterday from the dealership the chap that gave me my car keys back acknowledged the Watchdog report saying that they have no idea what's likely to happen as a result and that I should go back to Fiat UK for further advice on the investigation taking place currently. It appears they don't know anything more.
Click to expand...

Fiat must surely have to take some action after the Watchdog report. I expect there will be some sort of official response in the near future.

Meanwhile, I suspect anyone complaining about this issue to their dealer will now be fobbed off with the "Fiat are investigating and basically we can't do anything until after they've responded" line.
 
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The dealership was certainly very quick to suggest that it was now down to Fiat to resolve the issues.

I was thinking of contacting the finance company this afternoon to explain my predicament and see what their position would be but I'm not totally sure where this is likely to get me other than to be reminded that I am contractually tied to paying for the vehicle for the next 4 years.

I'm not sure the dealership will do anything further for me. They've done the testing. I could just leave the car with them, as per my previous post, leave the keys with them along with a letter to the MD stating that until the car can adequately cope hills, I do not want it.
 
If the car is supplied throught a Finance company then presumably you are their customer, and they have contracted the dealer to supply you with the required car. The dealer have contracted Fiat to supply the car to them as per your requirements.

You should keep paying the contract but take the car back to the dealers and reject it (once you have forced someone from the showroom or workshop to sit in the car with you while you drive around normally and show the problems). The car is clearly one of those that is not operating correctly and you cannot be expected to suffer it through 4 years of a lease contract. Owning or operating a brand new modern car should be a pleasurable experience, not an ordeal. Notify the lease company that you have done this, and demand that they take it up with the dealer.

The dealer should at least offer you a courtesy car, it is then up to them and Fiat to investigate your car and the problem in general before returning it to you or replacing it with a satisfactory equivalent.
 
Agree 100% with getting someone from the dealer to take a drive with you.
ab4444 - what exactly did the dealership give you in terms of printouts, written information about what they tested? You've not mentioned anything along those lines, so would be interested.

As I suggested last week I think, you need to get the dealer expert technician (DET) on board. May well be that was who tested your car, but again am not sure from what you said.

Try and find a good hill within a few miles of the dealership and go and test your car out there several times. If poss, take someone with you who can film your car and how it performs going up the hill. Then you can go back to the dealership with some actual proof.
 
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