If I had driven both cars as you consider normally, neither would have made it up the hill, neither...... It's a steep hill, not sure I've mentioned that before....
Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report
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Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report
We still don't know that yet. It could still be down to a faulty batch of components or (more likely IMO) just the way that production tolerances add up on any individual car. Just because Fiat haven't managed to fix one yet doesn't mean it can't be fixed. Remember that their track record for resolving S/S issues, especially in the early days, was also woefully inadequate.
The easiest way to find out would be to find two Euro6 1.2 owners, one who finds the car acceptable and one who doesn't, and get them driving each other's cars. That would give a clear indication as to whether the problem was with the car, or with driver perception & driving style.
Driven a different way? Like the same way I drove my 500?
You could say that about almost any car; each make/model/variant will respond differently to different driving styles, and it's always a good idea to test drive anything you are considering purchasing to see if it suits your preferred way of driving.
There are some cars which I just can't get on with, even though their characteristics are not all that different to cars that suit me well. The 1.1 EcoPanda is a good example - it usually needs to be in a different gear than the one I'd prefer to be in at the time. That doesn't make it a bad car, just the wrong car for me.
Different folks drive differently; if Ahmett & myself were ever in the same car, then regardless of who was driving, one of us would probably have to be sedated. That doesn't mean one driving style is better than the other; just different.
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It interests me that this subject has so polarised the opinions of people. i would love to see this subject bottomed out and a resolution found.
Out of interest (& I'm not expecting this to solve the problem) have the euro 6 cars been driven with the city button turned on and off and has any difference been noticed? The TA ECO button cuts the power in the engine, I know the euro 5 city button only affected the steering but has that been changed in the euro 6?
Out of interest (& I'm not expecting this to solve the problem) have the euro 6 cars been driven with the city button turned on and off and has any difference been noticed? The TA ECO button cuts the power in the engine, I know the euro 5 city button only affected the steering but has that been changed in the euro 6?
We are talking about more considerable differences here than the usual nuances that you would find between brands and models. A transit van or an old mini whilst very different vehicles will respond equally to the same input.
It is one thing to find a car uncomfortable to drive but quite another to find yourself unable to move ahead because you are on a slight hill or unable to reverse when you have parked on an incline. It is very disconcerting until you work out how to overcome it's shortcomings. I can see how it could also become dangerous for an inexperienced driver.
Be that as it may, the issue here's is that the fault is not present on all cars.......
You seem to think that I am redlining the engine and then dumping the clutch, this is simply not the case......
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With the 1.2 Panda on order, I watched last weeks Watchdog with interest. We'd ordered the previous weekend, having driven it with 3 Adults on board and been suitably impressed, the alternative cars we tested were Toyota Aygo and Hyundai I10 1.2 pre 2012 model. The test was around town, and dual carriageway- though I hadn't sought out any hills.
As a result of seeing the program, I requested a retest from the dealer and last Saturday took the car unaccompanied to a hilly region of town. we were prepared to cancel, should we encounter any issues. The incline was around 1:7. We took turns in hill starting, and I deliberately changed up early into second on a number of occasions. My conclusion was not the same as Watchdog. The car took off as I would expect, and whilst changing up well before 3000 RPM made progress leisurely, the power did not drop away and speed climbed. Using a more conventional approach of revving toward peak torque. I've had a number of small cars over the years, the last being a Daewoo Matiz. Our current cars are an Mx5 1.6 for the wife, (not renowned for being the torquemiester general!), and a for the last 7 years I've driven a 2l turbo diesel and currently a 170BHP 1.8 Turbocharged petrol with an auto box. You would expect me to have spotted any deficiencies, and the reality is I didn't.
I've just re-viewed the Watchdog report, and to be frank, I'm suspicious of the gear in which she was driving to demonstrate the 'Problem' - Watch it again and see what you think.
We get the car this weekend.
As a result of seeing the program, I requested a retest from the dealer and last Saturday took the car unaccompanied to a hilly region of town. we were prepared to cancel, should we encounter any issues. The incline was around 1:7. We took turns in hill starting, and I deliberately changed up early into second on a number of occasions. My conclusion was not the same as Watchdog. The car took off as I would expect, and whilst changing up well before 3000 RPM made progress leisurely, the power did not drop away and speed climbed. Using a more conventional approach of revving toward peak torque. I've had a number of small cars over the years, the last being a Daewoo Matiz. Our current cars are an Mx5 1.6 for the wife, (not renowned for being the torquemiester general!), and a for the last 7 years I've driven a 2l turbo diesel and currently a 170BHP 1.8 Turbocharged petrol with an auto box. You would expect me to have spotted any deficiencies, and the reality is I didn't.
I've just re-viewed the Watchdog report, and to be frank, I'm suspicious of the gear in which she was driving to demonstrate the 'Problem' - Watch it again and see what you think.
We get the car this weekend.
But define normally. It seems you expect a car to perform the same on a steep hill as it would on the flat? Thats certainly how it comes across, and as people have said, this will never be the case regardless of the car.
Just out of curiosity, I wonder if a euro6 500 with the fault still gets up a hill better than our 769cc 34hp Classic Panda's…….
It was 'dangerous' because they were implying that every 500 1.2 man with 'new' engine was the same. It is clearly not and is irresponsible journalism. Typical BBC. Why did they not seek out more owners for a more balanced response or would that not have made a good report. As for the reporter, I drive a 300HP golf and it would stall on a steep hill in too high a gear at walking pace...
I also have no shares in nor do I work for FIAT. I have driven VW for a long time. My daughter has the 500. ( which I think is better spec / value than polo or UP ).
Are we sure that is a Euro 6 engine as unless we are 100% sure it is hard to know if that test is valid. Where did you get the car, it sounds like it has been sitting around for a while as it hasn't got many miles on it for the time registered.
Euro 6 was not mandatory until St 2014 so it could be old stock. Is it not possible to use the V5 as that has detailed emission results and also variant details.
Euro 6 was not mandatory until St 2014 so it could be old stock. Is it not possible to use the V5 as that has detailed emission results and also variant details.
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I know, but it fits in with the timescale of the issues 
I appreciate the effort you went to, but if it isn't a Euro 6 engine it doesn't really give a definitive answer. However, it might show why some people don't have the problem as they may also not be Euro 6.
We need to find a way to identify euro 6 engines and then see if only confirmed euro 6 versions are affected.
There must be a way.
We need to find a way to identify euro 6 engines and then see if only confirmed euro 6 versions are affected.
There must be a way.
Did the earlier Euro5 engines have the VVT solenoid? (at least that's what i've been told it is)
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Same on both engines
Therein lies the issue.
How do we know which engines are the mythical euro 6 engines?
The only thing that's been given so far is a timeframe and this car appears to fit into that timeframe.
The thing is euro 6 only came into force for type approval from September 2014 and will only apply to the sale of cars from the start of next year.
So are these cars actually euro 6 at all?
I still feel euro 6 is somewhat of a red herring in all of this....
....... so to put this simply ......
Euro6 came into force in September of this year - only nine weeks ago.
Therefore you are suggesting that Fiat 500's on the road at this time are NOT Euro6?
If this is true, everyone has been barking up the wrong tree.
Puzzled,
Mick
Euro6 came into force in September of this year - only nine weeks ago.
Therefore you are suggesting that Fiat 500's on the road at this time are NOT Euro6?
If this is true, everyone has been barking up the wrong tree.
Puzzled,
Mick
Exactly. Plus Fiat claim that the change happened in May, look at when this thread starts......
We don't so in order to work out if it is a Euro 6 engine, we need to know how to identify it. As this seems to be a "possible" design change at which the issue "may" have started, then it makes sense to work out if it is only Euro 6 engines affected or not. Otherwise you have nothing to start with when looking for a simple cause which is causing a significant number of people to have a problem.
Although the time frame fits, it might also fit the time frame for when Euro 6 was introduced and when a mix of engines was available, so that needs to be eliminated and until that is done, nobody knows either way. Euro 6 has been introduced on the 500, when and in which countries is hard to tell. It could be a total red herring, but it is a place to start eliminating things and given that it will affect a engines performance, then it makes it a potential which is easy to eliminate.
If it does end up that only Euro 6 engines are affected then it is a starting position.
Although the time frame fits, it might also fit the time frame for when Euro 6 was introduced and when a mix of engines was available, so that needs to be eliminated and until that is done, nobody knows either way. Euro 6 has been introduced on the 500, when and in which countries is hard to tell. It could be a total red herring, but it is a place to start eliminating things and given that it will affect a engines performance, then it makes it a potential which is easy to eliminate.
If it does end up that only Euro 6 engines are affected then it is a starting position.
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As far as I know it's not until Sept 2015 before you have to be Euro 6 compliant, I believe you can still register Euro 5 until next year if it is in stock.