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Technical When to change the Cam belt?

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Technical When to change the Cam belt?

varesecrazy said:
Hi

What age is the 500?

Do you know about its last change..?

Was it : a belt

A belt kit

Kit and waterpump?

If it never moved in lockdown.. it might be worth getting the KIT fitted..
Sounds like you will be paying labour.. so it is worthwhile

The 500 share many parts with the FORD KA

so many places have the correct kit to do this job properly :)
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Thanks! It's the whole kit. The car is 10 years old. Been changed once >5 years ago (before bought)
 
charli2 said:
Hi!! I didn't know whether to start a new thread or resurrect this one, as it's the same question, but more basic! (sorry!)
How often should I change the cam belt. My fiat 500 pop has 18,000 miles on the clock and I only do about 1000/year just locally in the city. My usual place (who aren't the most honest) said to replace it every 4 years (and quoted well over £500), but when I asked another place for a quote, they said not to bother when there's less than 50,000 miles. How often does it need to be done, and what's a realistic price nowadays? (PS can you recommend a place in East/central London at all?)
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The official Fiat recommendation seems to be 72,000 miles or 5 years whichever comes first. See here: http://fiat.mopar.eu/contents/brand...elt_replacement/timing-belt-leaflets-fiat.pdf
The 1.2 engine, from about 2011 onwards (Not sure exactly what month they changed), adopted a VVT cam pulley and went up from a quoted 60hp to 69hp. This engine is found in both the Panda and 500 (maybe others too?) and became interference with this change.

Personally I start to think about changing the belts on our Panda 1.2 - and my boy's Punto 1.4 8valve - which is an almost identical FIRE engine in many respects with ours being pre interference and the boy's being post interference - when they go past 4 years/40,000 miles. Both cars are second cars so don't do the miles but run around town a lot which is actually more stressful for the belt than a car which does high mileages and longer trips. If they were doing higher annual mileages I'd probably be starting to think about looking for a suitable opportunity soon after they'd turned 4years/50,000 miles.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that low annual mileage means you can ignore it, as I said above it's just as stressful for the belt, possibly more so, than running at medium revs for much longer periods. Also as the belts age they get brittle and start to crack which isn't good. Even doing the low mileages we do (around 2 to 3 thousand a year for us and a bit more for my lad) I would still get the tensioner (which is included in every kit I've seen) and water pump (which you sometimes have to ask to be included) done every time. The main dealers seem to pump the price up steeply when you ask for the pump to also be done - around here anyway - for which there is no good reason. Yes you've got the price of the pump but there's very little extra labour compared with just doing a belt and tensioner.

My local indy Fiat garage seems to quote around £350 for the complete job including pump and that seems a reasonable price to me as the complete kit - belt, tensioner, pump and maybe a new cam cover gasket with a "dod" of sealant thrown in - is going to set him back certainly less than £100.

Been many years since I lived in west London and now living up here in Edinburgh, I'm sorry but can't help with a garage recommendation but the job's pretty simple as belt changes go and the engine has been around for a long time and is even used in the Ford Ka so I would say that almost any small COMPETENT garage should be able to make a good job of it.

Here's a video giving you some idea of what's involved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3bBaYhvfEw It's recommended that you use the full locking kit to immobilize the engine when doing this job but some choose to do it this way marking the pulleys - Horses for courses I suppose and depends on a number of factors including how confident you are. Quicker to do it the tippex way as you don't have to dismantle the cam cover and install the cam locking tool. Hope some of this helps.
Regards
Jock

PS, for those who are wondering, the cam pulley on this engine is a VVT type with the front cover on it to keep the oil in. The older design is a solid cast pulley with lightening holes in it. If you are going to do this job using the locking tools and slackening the cam pulley so it can spin on the end of the camshaft you have to remove that threaded plug in the middle of the pulley to access the retaining bolt (torx type as far as I know?) If you do this be ready for a fair bit of oil to come out when you remove the plug!
 
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Pugglt Auld Jock said:
The 1.2 engine, from about 2011 onwards (Not sure exactly what month they changed), adopted a VVT cam pulley and went up from a quoted 60hp to 69hp. This engine is found in both the Panda and 500 (maybe others too?) and became interference with this change.
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The 500 had the 69HP VVT engine from launch; there are no 500's with a non-interference engine.

The 169 Panda had it from mid 2010 onwards, at the same time the 1.1 engine was dropped.
 
I just had the cambelt, aux belt, tensioners, water pump and coolant changed at local Fiat specialist. £378 and that was using all Fiat parts (the discounts on individual parts made it cheaper than buying the kits). Some garages recover the coolant but as ours was 7 years old and the corrosion inhibitors lose efficiency with age it was sensible to change the coolant too.
 
percymon said:
£378 and that was using all Fiat parts
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Not cheap, but the peace of mind you have from knowing it's been done properly with decent parts is priceless.

There have been far too many posts here from folks who've had problems after cambelt chamges, many by otherwise reputable garages, to make this a job that's worth penny pinching on.
 
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jrkitching said:
Not cheap, but the peace of mind you have from knowing it's been done properly with decent parts is priceless.

There have been far too many posts here from folks who've had problems after cambelt chamges, many by otherwise reputable garages, to make this a job that's worth penny pinching on.
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The very reason I didn’t trust it to any garage, uff do big any brand parts from their local parts suppliers. On our car we had the pump that uses the sealant so has to be left overnight before refilling with coolant (rather than a gasket). We also have a two year warranty which is probably worth a bit extra for peace of mind.
 
a few questions on replacing my cam belt ect….
ive got a dayco kit belt water pump and tensioner however the tensioner isn't the kind that takes the two prong tool to tension it?


is it an automatic tensioner or do I have to tighten up put belt on then tension?
I have the locking kit so I can correctly align but im just unsure of the tensioner..
also the water pump has come with a gasket should I just use that and or use sealant too or is the gasket enough?


and seeing as I will have to take off the rocker cover im assuming I will need a new gasket for that also....
ill insert pics of the tensioner via my phone cant work out how to do it via laptop :eek:
yuck.gif
 
Also forgot to mention I had a look at my belt but only via top cover… the top side looks quite shiny
 

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The cam cover gaskets are flexible rubber so you might get away with reusing the old one. However they do tend, like most rubber things, to degrade with age so I'd just go with a new one. I've used ones bought from the Fiat dealer, Shop4parts and my local factor and they all worked fine although the one from my local factor did seem a bit "firmer" than the others. Remember to thoroughly degrease the groove it fits in in the cam cover and put some sealant in the corners where it bends up over the ends otherwise you may get an oil leak.

Some people say they recon these gaskets last very nicely for the time duration of a cam belt change before leaking and they are known to leak when they get older.

Hope you are keeping well, Oh, and if you haven't already, have a good read of Andy Monty's guide on changing the cam belt in the Grande Punto section: https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/237966-1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.html

As always, kindest regards
Jock
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
The cam cover gaskets are flexible rubber so you might get away with reusing the old one. However they do tend, like most rubber things, to degrade with age so I'd just go with a new one. I've used ones bought from the Fiat dealer, Shop4parts and my local factor and they all worked fine although the one from my local factor did seem a bit "firmer" than the others. Remember to thoroughly degrease the groove it fits in in the cam cover and put some sealant in the corners where it bends up over the ends otherwise you may get an oil leak.

Some people say they recon these gaskets last very nicely for the time duration of a cam belt change before leaking and they are known to leak when they get older.

Hope you are keeping well, Oh, and if you haven't already, have a good read of Andy Monty's guide on changing the cam belt in the Grande Punto section: https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/237966-1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.html

As always, kindest regards
Jock
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Thank you jock all ok in my neck of the woods! Hope the same for you too!
 
So today was the day … got everything off belt tensioner & water pump changed only thing is I can’t seem to get the belt tight on the right hand side! It seems like it has a little too much slack
I’ve had the belt off numerous times to try re adjust but still the same when tensioned!
I’m afraid I’m going to have to get someone out to just check as I don’t want to damage anything by taking the locking tools out and cranking the engine … feel a bit deflated and pissed off as I’ve come so far!
 
First question to ask is did you slacken the camshaft sprocket bolt? That's the one that hides inside the camshaft sprocket. You have to take the blanking plug out of the sprocket, and spill a wee bit of oil in the process, to get access to it. I've seen a number of posts on the forum from people having exactly this timing problem and I've been thinking about it - in fact Car Mechanics covered replacing a belt on the Ka recently as a feature article and ran into the very same problem. If you did slacken this bolt you must not retighten it until the belt is fully assembled and the tensioner set up so it's applying tension to the belt. This should cause that top sprocket to rotate slightly on the stationary locked up camshaft and take up the correct position. Unfortunately you really must not fully torque tighten that camshaft sprocket bolt with the cam locking tool in place as it's very possible to snap off the lug on the back end of the camshaft so you have to remove the locking tool before tightening and I think what happens is that the camshaft moves slightly whilst you're tightening the locking bolt so when you put the locking tools back in things don't line up quite right.

If you didn't slacken the cam sprocket bolt then I think you'll find you've set it up one tooth retarded. To get out of this situation you need to leave the cam locking tool in place so the cam can't move, slacken the belt tensioner again and take the little bolt out of the top hole on the crankshaft locking tool - that's the one that goes in the hole where the belt guard retaining bolt goes - now turn the crankshaft backwards just a little bit (anticlockwise when looking at the "front" of the engine ie, driver's side end) probably around half to one tooth distance is going to be enough. Now when you refit the belt it's going to be one tooth advanced compared to before and when you gently turn the crank back clockwise you'll find the belt goes tight just as the hole in the end of the crank locking tool lines up with the treaded hole in the front of the engine.

By the way, as I'm sure you know, the crankshaft goes round twice for every one turn of the camshaft. So moving the belt by one tooth spacing on the cam pulley gives the same movement as two teeth on the crankshaft pulley. So what I'm saying is you may need to "play around" to decide whether to move by one tooth on the crankshaft or one tooth on the camshaft - or two teeth on the crankshaft instead of one tooth on the camshaft if that's easier to do?

Hopefully you get the idea? Nearly confused myself trying to put it into words though! Think I need to lie down in a dark room for a half hour or so before Mrs J gets the tea on the table!
Kindest regards
Jock

PS. Of course, at nearly 75 years old the reasoning of this old brain may just be a total load of hogwash! However when I did Becky's belt - and I didn't slacken "that bolt" I found I had to turn the crank anticlockwise just slightly to get the belt on. The problem being that if you don't slacken the cam sprocket bolt and lock up the cam and crankshaft then, because there is no give anywhere on the driving run of the belt - that is from cam sprocket, round the water pump and down to the crank sprocket then these sprocket teeth are locked, by the blocking tools, in the fully tensioned running position in relation to one another and it's not reasonable to expect to be able to get the teeth on the belt to engage without turning either the crank anticlockwise or cam clockwise just enough (half a tooth will probably do it) to get the belt teeth to engage the teeth on the sprockets. I believe this is why the official way of doing it with the locking tools insists on you slackening the cam bolt because that way the belt pulls the slack cam pulley round to the "right" position.

Another PS. On the other hand, look at it this way, the gasket cement on the water pump is going to have plenty of time to harden properly before you put the coolant back in!
 
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Am I the only one thinking that changing the belt on the VVT 69HP 1.2 is a pig of a job, with many traps to catch out those folks who are simply following some generic timing belt replacement procedure.

Somewhat awkward access, and the need to properly support the powertrain before taking the top mount off, add to the difficulty.

This isn't a job I'd trust to an independent garage without specific Fiat knowledge and tooling. Without the proper timing tools, and the expertise to use them correctly, ending up with an engine that won't quite run as it's supposed to is practically guaranteed. This forum is littered with posts from folks who've had problems after belt replacement.
 
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Pugglt Auld Jock said:
First question to ask is did you slacken the camshaft sprocket bolt? That's the one that hides inside the camshaft sprocket. You have to take the blanking plug out of the sprocket, and spill a wee bit of oil in the process, to get access to it. I've seen a number of posts on the forum from people having exactly this timing problem and I've been thinking about it - in fact Car Mechanics covered replacing a belt on the Ka recently as a feature article and ran into the very same problem. If you did slacken this bolt you must not retighten it until the belt is fully assembled and the tensioner set up so it's applying tension to the belt. This should cause that top sprocket to rotate slightly on the stationary locked up camshaft and take up the correct position. Unfortunately you really must not fully torque tighten that camshaft sprocket bolt with the cam locking tool in place as it's very possible to snap off the lug on the back end of the camshaft so you have to remove the locking tool before tightening and I think what happens is that the camshaft moves slightly whilst you're tightening the locking bolt so when you put the locking tools back in things don't line up quite right.

If you didn't slacken the cam sprocket bolt then I think you'll find you've set it up one tooth retarded. To get out of this situation you need to leave the cam locking tool in place so the cam can't move, slacken the belt tensioner again and take the little bolt out of the top hole on the crankshaft locking tool - that's the one that goes in the hole where the belt guard retaining bolt goes - now turn the crankshaft backwards just a little bit (anticlockwise when looking at the "front" of the engine ie, driver's side end) probably around half to one tooth distance is going to be enough. Now when you refit the belt it's going to be one tooth advanced compared to before and when you gently turn the crank back clockwise you'll find the belt goes tight just as the hole in the end of the crank locking tool lines up with the treaded hole in the front of the engine.

By the way, as I'm sure you know, the crankshaft goes round twice for every one turn of the camshaft. So moving the belt by one tooth spacing on the cam pulley gives the same movement as two teeth on the crankshaft pulley. So what I'm saying is you may need to "play around" to decide whether to move by one tooth on the crankshaft or one tooth on the camshaft - or two teeth on the crankshaft instead of one tooth on the camshaft if that's easier to do?

Hopefully you get the idea? Nearly confused myself trying to put it into words though! Think I need to lie down in a dark room for a half hour or so before Mrs J gets the tea on the table!
Kindest regards
Jock

PS. Of course, at nearly 75 years old the reasoning of this old brain may just be a total load of hogwash! However when I did Becky's belt - and I didn't slacken "that bolt" I found I had to turn the crank anticlockwise just slightly to get the belt on. The problem being that if you don't slacken the cam sprocket bolt and lock up the cam and crankshaft then, because there is no give anywhere on the driving run of the belt - that is from cam sprocket, round the water pump and down to the crank sprocket then these sprocket teeth are locked, by the blocking tools, in the fully tensioned running position in relation to one another and it's not reasonable to expect to be able to get the teeth on the belt to engage without turning either the crank anticlockwise or cam clockwise just enough (half a tooth will probably do it) to get the belt teeth to engage the teeth on the sprockets. I believe this is why the official way of doing it with the locking tools insists on you slackening the cam bolt because that way the belt pulls the slack cam pulley round to the "right" position.

Another PS. On the other hand, look at it this way, the gasket cement on the water pump is going to have plenty of time to harden properly before you put the coolant back in!
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I actually didn’t undo that crank bolt jock I just rotated and fitted the timing tools and all went swimmingly.. the hardest part of this whole job was removing the engine mount bolts on the part that goes through the belt

As I’ve left things today everything is in place …. Just not tensioned up it’s far too hot in my garage and I have a mechanic popping round tomorrow to help me!
I don’t feel as defeated now as I’ve done quite a lot today and the work is almost complete
But yes at least the water pump will be solid!
 
Hi Chris. I have to say really well done, I'm in awe of what you've achieved over these last few months and to attempt your first cam belt with so little experience is very "brave". You're so nearly there too!

Yes the mounting bolts are a bit of a sod aren't they, but you managed them!

You say you didn't undo the crank bolt? can I guess you mean the cam sprocket/pulley bolt? that's the one at the top of the engine. I'm sure you've just wrongly named it as there is no reason to undo the big centre bolt on the crankshaft at the bottom of the engine to do this job?

So if you didn't undo the camshaft sprocket/pulley (whatever you want to call it) and you've told me you've got the new water pump fitted with the cam locking tool in the slot on the back end of the camshaft and the crank locking tool bolted - with 3 bolts - to the crankshaft sprocket with the wee bolt in the end of it screwed into the belt guard fixing hole - So both shafts, cam and crank, are locked up with the tools, then you've no chance of getting the belt on and lined up correctly. It would have to be made of stretchy elastic to achieve this!

Mark the belt and cam sprocket with tippex or something similar and do the same to the crank sprocket and belt. Slacken the tensioner then take the belt off the crank sprocket so it's not engaged with the teeth any more. Now take the wee bolt out of the end of the crank locking tool and turn the crankshaft anticlockwise just a little. What you need to do is advance the belt by one tooth, maybe two if you've got a lot of slack, and as you say you're only a small way out I'd be doing this on the crank pulley as one tooth here is the equivalent of only half a tooth on the cam sprocket so it's a finer adjustment. Now check the belt hasn't jumped any teeth on the cam sprocket by looking to see if your marks are still lined up and retighten the tensioner then try putting the little bolt back into the crank locking tool. This is what I had to do on my boy's 1.4 VVT Punto which is an almost identical engine. If, with both the locking tools installed, the belt now seems tight then remove the locking tools and gently and slowly turn the crankshaft through two complete revolutions - which will turn the camshaft through just one rev so don't now expect your tippex marks to line up any more - and see if the timing tools can be refitted. If they slide back in then you're done. Take the plugs out before trying to turn the engine so you're not "fighting" the engine's compression and turn it quite slowly because what you are feeling for is whether a piston is making contact with a valve head around the top of it's stroke. If you feel any sudden stop of motion then don't force it any further. I say turn it slowly because turning it quickly, even by hand, can build up enough energy in the rotation of the flywheel to bend a valve before you can stop the crank moving. You've actually got to be a few teeth out before there's any real danger of letting the valves and pistons get "intimate"
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
Hi Chris. I have to say really well done, I'm in awe of what you've achieved over these last few months and to attempt your first cam belt with so little experience is very "brave". You're so nearly there too!

Yes the mounting bolts are a bit of a sod aren't they, but you managed them!

You say you didn't undo the crank bolt? can I guess you mean the cam sprocket/pulley bolt? that's the one at the top of the engine. I'm sure you've just wrongly named it as there is no reason to undo the big centre bolt on the crankshaft at the bottom of the engine to do this job?

So if you didn't undo the camshaft sprocket/pulley (whatever you want to call it) and you've told me you've got the new water pump fitted with the cam locking tool in the slot on the back end of the camshaft and the crank locking tool bolted - with 3 bolts - to the crankshaft sprocket with the wee bolt in the end of it screwed into the belt guard fixing hole - So both shafts, cam and crank, are locked up with the tools, then you've no chance of getting the belt on and lined up correctly. It would have to be made of stretchy elastic to achieve this!

Mark the belt and cam sprocket with tippex or something similar and do the same to the crank sprocket and belt. Slacken the tensioner then take the belt off the crank sprocket so it's not engaged with the teeth any more. Now take the wee bolt out of the end of the crank locking tool and turn the crankshaft anticlockwise just a little. What you need to do is advance the belt by one tooth, maybe two if you've got a lot of slack, and as you say you're only a small way out I'd be doing this on the crank pulley as one tooth here is the equivalent of only half a tooth on the cam sprocket so it's a finer adjustment. Now check the belt hasn't jumped any teeth on the cam sprocket by looking to see if your marks are still lined up and retighten the tensioner then try putting the little bolt back into the crank locking tool. This is what I had to do on my boy's 1.4 VVT Punto which is an almost identical engine. If, with both the locking tools installed, the belt now seems tight then remove the locking tools and gently and slowly turn the crankshaft through two complete revolutions - which will turn the camshaft through just one rev so don't now expect your tippex marks to line up any more - and see if the timing tools can be refitted. If they slide back in then you're done. Take the plugs out before trying to turn the engine so you're not "fighting" the engine's compression and turn it quite slowly because what you are feeling for is whether a piston is making contact with a valve head around the top of it's stroke. If you feel any sudden stop of motion then don't force it any further. I say turn it slowly because turning it quickly, even by hand, can build up enough energy in the rotation of the flywheel to bend a valve before you can stop the crank moving. You've actually got to be a few teeth out before there's any real danger of letting the valves and pistons get "intimate"
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Oh jock .. I’m finding it hard to remember exactly what I did today ?
Now I know I had to turn the very bottom pulley .. the one the crankshaft pulley screws onto .. so I could line up to enable me to get both locking tools into (top tool & the lower with the three bolts and one at the top)

Once I did that and they were locked in I then removed tension took the old belt off … old tensioner and the water pump
I cleaned down around the pump checked everything and fitted new pump with gasket
Put the tensioner on but obviously not tight
Then started with belt … from bottom to pump over top sprocket all the while trying to keep the slack to the rear (tensioner side) then slid on tensioner (bit tight) made sure belt centred then tensioned with tool and locked bolt

Now…. Bit slack like I say to front (front bumper side) I was very confused by the tensioner & doing it correctly … I’ll drop pics below
I presume the tensioner is window to the metal piece (if that makes sense) and not most of the way round or the belt would be too tight?
 

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Yup, you did it exactly by the book, but, "the book" is assuming that the top sprocket is going to be free to rotate on the camshaft because it's bolt has been slackened. If the cam sprocket bolt is slack then as you tighten the tensioner the cam sprocket will rotate, just a little, anticlockwise to allow the run of the belt on the water pump side to tighten.

However fitting the belt without slackening that cam sprocket bolt stops this from being able to happen and the cam itself can't turn - which would allow the belt to tighten but wouldn't probably end up with the correct timing - because you've got the locking tool slotted into the end of it.

These pictures were taken with both cam locking tool (which I can see is installed) and crank locking tool installed? If so, looking at your pictures it looks like you need to advance the belt by one tooth on the crank pulley without altering how the teeth are meshed with the cam pulley. In other words with the belt teeth meshed to the cam pulley as they are right now (mark belt and cam pulley so you can double check) turn the crank pulley anticlockwise by one tooth and try tightening the tensioner again then check to see if the locking tools drop in after you've gently turned her over by 2 revs. Looking at the slack in the belt I don't think you'll need to go as much as two teeth but you'll find that out when you check if the tools drop in.

At the end of the day look at it like this. You haven't slackened the sprocket bolt and that is the only variable which might muck things up - the belts are very accurately made so the difference between one belt and another is negligible - so the problem you have is that the belt isn't correctly meshed and I'm sure you've got it so near it's only going to be a tooth, or possibly two teeth, out.

I hope you can get to closely watch what this chap does so you can report back to us. Of course he may choose to go with loosening the cam sprocket bolt and doing it "by the book" in which case we'll never know.

Whatever happens I wish you all the best and hope it doesn't cost you too much. After all most of the time is taken up with the dismantling of the mounting etc so it shouldn't take him too long to just line up the belt.
 
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