JNAnderson said:

Thank you. I'm in Dumfries and Galloway so there should be a few places. My warranty (used car with Warrantywise) says air con is included, but I don't know of what parts, if it has to wait until it fails completely before they'll cover it, or because it's looking knackered would they cover. My warranty expires next month so keen to either do it before then, or hold off and renew my warranty anyway if they'll cover it at a later day. Just for info.. this is my condenser through the grill... I hope the first gRage didn't do this.

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You could get the A/C system tested and if it does fail, go back to Warrantywise with the report and try to claim for a new condenser? That's what I'd do first, but it's your decision.

I feel annoyed that I didn't go back to the garage that changed my radiator in July and see if they caused this. But would they have admitted it anyway? Probably not. The air con still works (for now). Is there any damage using the air con if it isn't working? Really not keen to spend anymore money for another few months but getting quite stressed.

Could this have been like this before I bought the car (I didn't check, I didn't even know what the condenser was back then), or is it most likely the garage did cause this? Not sure from top of it, but from what I see the whole thing bowes down.

jrkitching said:

This is caused by corrosion from driving on wet salty roads in our typical UK winters. If you look at other 500's (and Pandas) of similar age, you'll likely find they are the same. There's not much you can do to prevent this happening.

It's unlikely to have been caused directly by the fitting of the radiator, but doing so may have loosened any fins already weakened by corrosion. This isn't a criticism of the mechanic doing the job, just an inevitable consequence of working close to a component with rotting fins.

The loss of fins will reduce the cooling capacity of the condenser a little, but probably not enough to stop the A/C operating satisfactorily. Eventually, the corrosion will perforate one of the main refrigerant pipes in the condensor, and then it will either have to be replaced, or you could instead just run it as a car without A/C.

Until then, it's probably best left alone. It might even last the life of the car in its current condition; the fins are much weaker than the main pipework.

Even if you replace it, its replacement will likely go the same way in a relatively short time. Another example of Fiat parts quality.

Anyone suffering a perforated radiator due to external corrosion (as opposed to internal corrosion caused by running without the correctly inhibited coolant) will likely find their A/C condenser is in a similar state. They're made of the same materials, and located in much the same place, so equally vulnerable to the effects of salt spray.

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Thank you x

JNAnderson said:

I feel annoyed that I didn't go back to the garage that changed my radiator in July and see if they caused this. But would they have admitted it anyway? Probably not. The air con still works (for now). Is there any damage using the air con if it isn't working? Really not keen to spend anymore money for another few months but getting quite stressed.

Could this have been like this before I bought the car (I didn't check, I didn't even know what the condenser was back then), or is it most likely the garage did cause this? Not sure from top of it, but from what I see the whole thing bowes down.

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The thing is, you don't actually know whether or not the aircon is working well at all because you don't know the current health of the system. You may find that come the summer, you get almost zero cooling effect. It's still winter and so you'll find you'll get little indication of just how cool the system is on cold unless you place thermometers in the grill vents, which by the way is something the place I take my car to for A/C servicing does.

As for running the A/C system if it isn't working correctly, there is always the possibility of damaging the A/C compressor, especially if there is little oil in the system. The seals may have dried out etc.

From experience of reading others views on car A/C systems, people are generally loathe to spend any money on them. As with many aspects of car ownership, lots of folk just don't want to spend the money on either preventative maintenance or general repairs until it all happens at once. We live in a throw away society, so that's what many people do. I've just watched one of my neighbours leave for work, she started up her car and plumes of blue smoke poured out of the back of the car. She wont' get it sorted, she'll just run it 'til the MoT expires and scrap the car.

Sounds like you've been somewhat unfortunate with the amount of work you've had to sort with this car, but as many have said, the car is now six years old and parts are failing and they will continue to fail. The 500 though is still by many car standards, relatively cheap to fix.

JNAnderson said:

I feel annoyed that I didn't go back to the garage that changed my radiator in July and see if they caused this. But would they have admitted it anyway? Probably not. The air con still works (for now). Is there any damage using the air con if it isn't working? Really not keen to spend anymore money for another few months but getting quite stressed.

Could this have been like this before I bought the car (I didn't check, I didn't even know what the condenser was back then), or is it most likely the garage did cause this? Not sure from top of it, but from what I see the whole thing bowes down.

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Having seen the picture, it confirms what I've said before - this is corrosion damage. It doesn't look like there are any fins left at all on the condenser; I think the fins you see in the picture are the fins on the main cooling radiator behind it. Once all the fins have corroded away, the main pipes are unsupported and sag downward. The whole condenser is of rather flimsy construction, even when new.

I doubt this is the fault of the garage fitting the radiator; more likely the harsh winter conditions that caused the radiator to fail also caused the loss of the fins on the condenser. Actually, given the state of that condenser, they must have worked carefully and did well not to break it. You'd need to read the small print of the warranty, but I'd say this is fair wear and tear, given the local climate where you live. Warranties generally have a blanket exclusion for wear and tear items.

My Panda is almost as bad after 6 1/2 yrs. Most of the fins are gone, but the pipes haven't started to sag noticeably yet. The A/C still works just fine.

You won't cause any further damage by trying to run the A/C if it does lose all its refrigerant; the control system will just cut out the compressor and it won't work. But if it stops working and you leave it in this state for any length of time, internal corrosion will likely render the compressor scrap, and that will substantially increase the cost of repairing it. Until then, you can just carry on using it as normal.

If you do have the condenser replaced, you should replace the dryer as a matter of course; they don't cost much and any reputable A/C engineer will do this anyway.

Agree entirely with JR's points. That condenser is undoubtedly the original and the state it is in is down solely to the passage of time and the harsh conditions the car has to put up with here on UK roads.

I'm almost betting that condenser is already stuffed and I doubt there's any refrigerant left in it. I could be wrong, but again, only a leak test will prove it.

So your options are, spend the money and get it replaced, or leave it and just don't use the A/C, as already outlined by JR...

jrkitching said:

Having seen the picture, it confirms what I've said before - this is corrosion damage. It doesn't look like there are any fins left at all on the condenser; I think the fins you see in the picture are the fins on the main cooling radiator behind it. Once all the fins have corroded away, the main pipes are unsupported and sag downward. The whole condenser is of rather flimsy construction, even when new.

I doubt this is the fault of the garage fitting the radiator; more likely the harsh winter conditions that caused the radiator to fail also caused the loss of the fins on the condensor.

You'd need to read the small print of the warranty, but I'd say this is fair wear and tear, given the local climate where you live. Warranties generally have a blanket exclusion for wear and tear items.

My Panda is almost as bad after 6 1/2 yrs. Most of the fins are gone, but the pipes haven't started to sag noticeably yet. The A/C still works just fine.

You won't cause any further damage by trying to run the A/C if it does lose all its refrigerant; the control system will just cut out the compressor and it won't work. But if it stops working and you leave it in this state for any length of time, internal corrosion will likely render the compressor scrap, and that will substantially increase the cost of repairing it. Until then, you can just carry on using it as normal.

If you do have the condenser replaced, you should replace the dryer as a matter of course; they don't cost much and any reputable A/C engineer will do this anyway.

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Stupid question possibly, my brain is fried this morning, but by blanket exclusion for wear and tear, that means they generally don't cover any wear and tear? Thanks again.

frupi said:

As with many aspects of car ownership, lots of folk just don't want to spend the money on either preventative maintenance or general repairs until it all happens at once.

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:yeahthat:

Keeping a car on the road costs money. With a new car, most of it goes in depreciation; with an old one, most of it will be spent on repairs. Either way, there's going to be an unavoidable minimum level of expenditure if you want to drive.

It's a balancing act; the economics depend a lot on how much you can do for yourself, and how good you are at building a relationship with a trusted independent garage.

There comes a point in a car's life when keeping it on the road will cost you more than letting it go and starting again. That point will come much sooner in your period of ownership if you rely on using main dealers for everything.

JNAnderson said:

Stupid question possibly, my brain is fried this morning, but by blanket exclusion for wear and tear, that means they generally don't cover any wear and tear? Thanks again.

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Just don't assume that because you have a warranty on the A/C, they'll automatically cover the cost of replacing a corroded condenser. You'd need to read the small print, but most warranties won't cover you for anything classed as fair wear and tear, or corrosion damage, although some do. Folks usually only find this out when they try to claim for something; it's not going to be written in letters ten feet high on the warranty provider's sales brochure.

Even getting hold of the small print is challenging; it took me ten minutes of internet searching to find an example.

This is an extract from one, taken at random, from an all inclusive warranty where the headline page says wear and tear items are covered (the highlighting is mine).

Note that warranty also specifically excludes anything which has not already suffered a breakdown, so you can't claim for things which are about to fail - you have to wait until they have broken.

I didn't zoom in the picture enough to see properly but now agree what JR says, its lost all its fins(can't believe how bad it is for a 6 year old car) but given how much has totally rusted away on ours it shouldn't surprise me. New condenser it is. If you get it fixed remember never turn the AC off even in winter.

After spending almost £500 putting the car through the MoT, another 300 odd quid is probably going to be stretching it.

Point is, the condenser to use a fine old word, is knackered, in anyone's book.

I like my A/C, that is why when mine got destroyed by a rather large piece of road detritus punching a dirty great hole straight through it, there was no question, it got replaced within a week of it happening.

If the car is now in generally good order, then spending a few extra quid to get some comfort out of it, might be worth the money.

This is my receipt from MOT yesterday. I've highlighted his opinion "air conditioning condenser bowed/sections of core missing"... maybe worse than that. All opinions are greatly appreciated. My dad doesn't drive and my boyfriend just argues I'm imagining all these car problems so nobody else to ask

frupi said:

Point is, the condenser to use a fine old word, is knackered, in anyone's book.

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It is, but if it's not leaking, you can carry on using the A/C until it fails. If there were a leak in the main condenser pipework, it'd lose all the refrigerant in short order (unlike with a seal where the leak can be quite slow, a pinhole in the pipework will quickly lead to total loss), so if the A/C is still working, it's probably not leaking yet.

Not that much different to continuing to run with a backbox once the outer skin has corroded away (and I see from your receipt that you are doing just that); though from an environmental perspective, the condenser should strictly be replaced now if it is likely to lose refrigerant at some point in the future (and it clearly will; the only question is when).

I don't want to further alarm the OP, but given the state of that condenser, I can't help but wonder what condition the rear beam is in. You can easily take a picture of it if you bend down behind the car.

To be fair to the mechanic, he's highlighted a very obvious problem, so you can't argue with that!

At the end of the day, it's your car and your purse and only you can decide if you want to throw any more cash at it. The condenser not working or not working efficiently, isn't going to stop you from using the car. What I would say though, if you do try using the A/C and it isn't working efficiently because of the poor state of the condenser, then you might possibly use more fuel using the A/C in that condition. Personally, I'd now stop using the A/C, but not using it, can cause the seals to dry out and cause compressor problems later down the line and A/C compressor replacement is very expensive!

If it were me, I'd get a leak test done, that's the cheapest thing to do first and some places won't charge if the system is already empty. If the system is empty or not charged to the correct refrigerant level, then decide, but I certainly wouldn't bother having a full A/C system service with a condenser in the state it is already in.

jrkitching said:

It is, but if it's not leaking, you can carry on using the A/C until it fails. If there were a leak in the main condenser pipework, it'd lose all the refrigerant in short order (unlike with a seal where the leak can be quite slow, a pinhole in the pipework will quickly lead to total loss), so if the A/C is still working, it's probably not leaking yet.

Not that much different to continuing to run with a backbox once the outer skin has corroded away (and I see from your receipt that you are doing just that); though from an environmental perspective, the condenser should strictly be replaced now if it is likely to lose refrigerant at some point in the future (and it clearly will; the only question is when).

I don't want to further alarm the OP, but given the state of that condenser, I can't help but wonder what condition the rear beam is in. You can easily take a picture of it if you bend down behind the car.

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I don't have a clue what a rear beam is sorry x

Yes, if you're feeling rather energetic and fancy laying down on the tarmac in a safe place, let's see the rear beam, by that we mean, lay down behind the back of the car, safely, handbrake on, someone stood by, and take a picture of the rear axle so to speak.......

frupi said:

To be fair to the mechanic, he's highlighted a very obvious problem, so you can't argue with that!.

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Sprry this was the garage yesterday that highlighted it. When I got my new radiator the garage that did that job never mentioned the condenser

As a matter of interest, if you of course don't mind revealing, how much were you charged for a new radiator?

I'm very surprised the garage that did the radiator job didn't mention it to be honest.......

I'll have to definitely double check my receipt later when at my car, but I'm sure it was over £300. My total bill for that day in particular was £879 or something. That was for a new radiator, a new speedo, topping up my coolant (had a coolant leak as mentioned before and garage continuously said it didn't have a leak, then it needed a new radiator to fix coolant leak, new radiator and still a coolant look). I'm sure the radiator was £300 ish. That wasn't covered by the warranty due to corrosion so actually, the air con maybe wouldn't be.

Stupid que again maybe, but would they remove the air con condenser for putting in a new radiator? I thought maybe, if anything, the garage that did the radiator maybe just slot the radiator in behind the air con, and maybe didn't see the condenser. I'm not sure x

JNAnderson said:

I don't have a clue what a rear beam is sorry x

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There are some pictures in this thread. It's from the Panda section, but the 500 beam is practically the same and will have the same corrosion issues once the cars reach a similar age. Pandas have started to fail the MOT for this from about 8yrs old onwards.

I'd bet money this issue will scrap a lot of 500's in the coming years. Repair by a garage using new OEM parts is likely to be £1500+. Secondhand 500 rear beams are currently both plentiful & cheap, so DIY repairs will be much less expensive. The job is awkward, dirty & messy, rather than difficult.